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 Post subject: The Battle for 3.0
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Hi.

Since I posted 'The Battle for Gobwin Bump' early last year, there have been a number of changes and fixes and interpretations from quite a lot of folk on this forum.

Lately I've been looking at some of the fundamental assumptions of that game, and wondering if somethings can be done better.

So I've posted a link in my signature to some draft rules for Gobwin Bump 3.0.

What's new?
* Units Types have an impact on combat
* Commanders are no longer units
* Scouts are simplified
* Cost formula has changed
* There's no longer multiple phases per team - just a single turn for popping, moving, combat. Scouting happens automatically.

If you're a veteran of the genre, or just new to these forums, have a look and tell me what you think

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:32 pm 
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    Hmm.... overall impressions first.

    This is a much simpler system, more like Erfworld Empires than TBfGK mk.1. In the face of the increasing complexity of Oddworld and its variants, that may be a good thing. On the other hand, it removes much of the room for creativity with unit types.

    I don't have BLAND's extraordinary prowess with Mathamancy, so I will not attempt to analyze the new rules in that way. However, I do note some things that stood out:

    1) On (2d6+8)/20, 2 is 50%, 7 is 75%, 12 is 100%, etc. Er... How would you get anything above 1 with this? Or are the latter numbers just 2d6?
    2) Wow - multi-hex artillery? This could be interesting...
    3) Combat bonuses add rather than multiply? (e.g. a lvl 5 cmdr special combined with, say, a 2x dance-fight special, would lead to a net bonus of just 2.5 rather than 3)
    4) Wait a minute - I think I've just found an exploit. :twisted: If I make a 2 H, 1 A, 1 D, 1 M (and consequently Siege unit), it seems to cost just 1 point. I can then pop 250 of them, stack them together, and bombard other units from the safety of another hex. :P
    5) Another issue - this time with Commanders. If I can endlessly stack and restack, can I relay a Commander around the battlefield with high-move units? Is this intended?
    6) Why the prohibition against moving blindly, without scouting?
    7) Wall bonuses are not explained.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:17 pm 
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    Good points, and well made.

    On simpler - this is the goal. But adding the unit types should make it more interesting.

    On other points:
    1) Good point - This is left over from previous versions. I will fix to bring it in line with the 2d6 / 10 of the Spreadsheet.
    3) Just for a change. It could go back to the other way.
    4) A good point. I've got a fix in mind for that. I'll think some more about it.
    5) Another good point. How about Commanders and Scouts can only change stacks once per turn?
    6) Just to make the game faster - no more "we move blindly into A1 with 1 stack, and then we wait for the GM to tell us if there's something there, before we move blindly into A2"
    7) A very good point. They have been left out of the draft entirely. Basically, they will add to the defence of stacks inside them, so that another 30 or 40 points of damage will be ignored in combat. Walls can be targeted by Siege, and destroyed.

    Thanks for the feedback. Any other comments?

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:24 am 
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    Read it, and will digest some more of it later.

    Some observations: (nitpick:) in the paragraph describing Commanders, the first sentence says they are units. The very next says they are not :P

    I don't much like Move determining unit type, but that may be just me.

    I do like 8 stack/hex limit, assuming the limit applies to stacks of the same side. The reason why I like it is because it puts a bit of a cramp on weakling-stack-spamming as a way of territory denial. OTOH, if the rules mean that 8 stacks/hex is max, regardless of side, then that imo is a problem. Yes, they may be displaced by Siege ... not yet sure that is enough though, Siege being as slow as it is.

    Btw, what happened to Mounts or did I miss those?

    I love the Trump system!

    Mixed feelings about forbidding allied units from mixing stacks. I get why- player factions quickly became theoretical in all TBf<> games, what with all the mixing going on. OTOH, why not? If you want to encourage players to stick to their own units (while enabling the occasional mixed maneuver) maybe a softer constraint, like some morale bonus/penalty perhaps?

    Multi-hex siege is interesting. Will have to see how it pans out. It doesn't actually seem that powerful, which is ok.

    My favourite mod however concerns what happens to badly damaged units after they get healed. I wonder if it is enough to tame the auto-heal beast.

    WaterMonkey314 wrote:
    In the face of the increasing complexity of Oddworld and its variants, that may be a good thing.


    Of course, this is the cook speaking, but Oddworld is not that complex, really :)

    A big difference between this system and Oddworld is that there are no player-controlled terrain modifiers (that is, traps and fortifications)- those alone take 2 chapters of Oddworld. The cost formula accomodates more specials, but the battle system includes less bonuses, in Oddworld than TBf3.0

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:37 pm 
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    Didn't fully digest, but A few things I noticed:

    Are specials for commanders really overpowered? Getting a special doubles the cost of the commander, which means less commanders on the field. Also, with only 3 special commanders allowed what do you do if their are 5 people?

    I like the 8 stacks per hex. Opens up options for other tactics and rules.

    Commanders should be able to switch stacks at will, hence the relays in comic.

    Nothing trumps archers? I guess your trying to balance that with the increased attack type cost.

    You note differences between heavy pikers and light pikers. Details?

    No stack bonus?

    Edit:
    Forgot to praise the scouting. Love the idea of taking part of the turns away to speed up the game, although I think can work with venturing into the unknown as long as the full move order was given at once

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:12 pm 
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    1) in the paragraph describing Commanders, the first sentence says they are units. The very next says they are not :P
    Typo. Fixed.

    2) I do like 8 stack/hex limit, assuming the limit applies to stacks of the same side.
    Yes, same side. So both sides could have 8 stacks each in the same hex. I'll fix this in the rules.

    3) Btw, what happened to Mounts or did I miss those?
    Gone.

    4) I love the Trump system!
    Thanks.

    5)Mixed feelings about forbidding allied units from mixing stacks.
    Just to speed up the game. My units are mine, and can't be controlled by another player.

    AND:

    1) Are specials for commanders really overpowered? Getting a special doubles the cost of the commander, which means less commanders on the field.
    I think it's ok. It'll be expensive to field a special.

    2) Also, with only 3 special commanders allowed what do you do if their are 5 people?
    No, it's 3 special commanders per faction, not Alliance. I'll change the rules to make this clearer.

    3) Commanders should be able to switch stacks at will, hence the relays in comic.
    Perhaps, but only fight once per turn.

    4) Nothing trumps archers? I guess your trying to balance that with the increased attack type cost.
    Yes, and I couldn't think of anything that really should trump archers - I guess I'm imagining English Longbowmen in reality. What did trump them in the 1400s?

    5) You note differences between heavy pikers and light pikers. Details?
    Just that you could design multiply kinds of Pikers. So a Heavy Piker might have 10 hits and defence of 5, while a light Piker might have 5 hits and defence of 2.

    6) No stack bonus?
    No, this is absorbed into the "Count the full attack for the first 8, and 1 attack per unit after that"
    And also the "Count the defence for the first 8"

    7) Forgot to praise the scouting. Love the idea of taking part of the turns away to speed up the game,
    Thanks. This was the main motivation for rewriting the rules. The Game gets bogged down as we wait for people to coordinate their scouts.

    8) although I think can work with venturing into the unknown as long as the full move order was given at once
    Yes, so long as the Alliance was willing to wait for the GM's turn before finding out the results of the blind movement. I think my way is better.


    I'm now ready to publish version 3.1, which fixes up some of the problems outlined above, and adds some more things. Check out the file in the signature below.

    Thanks for the comments and feedback.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:18 am 
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    What's nice about the new system is the attention to speed of play*. Who knows how it will look like in the end what with all the cooks huffing around, but someday I daresay it will be a hell of a forum game, the best there ever was ever :P

    Okay, back to serious business-

    - didn't mention the Attack+Defense < Hits thing last time, but I like it, as it encourages several unit roles. Hmm, I might uhm, "borrow" a similar idea in something I'll be making in the future.

    - scouting. Ok, 80 points for a scout that sees 4 hexes around is a large cost (compared to some piker, which can go as low as 9!); the question is, is it large enough?

    Meaning, now that Mounts are gone, and a Scout may see as far as the max possible move of any unit, AND Siege (the one unit type that can damage further than it can move) can only move 1 Hex at a time => there is NO WAY to surprise a stack with such a scout. Not necessarily a bug, but I'm thinking, if you allow Scouts to see that far, you might as well play with the map fully revealed and be done with it.


    PS: *: some choices- like Scouting- I'd do differently, speed of play be damned. So I won't be plagiarizing LtDave entirely :P

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:27 pm 
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    Quote:
    scouting. Ok, 80 points for a scout that sees 4 hexes around is a large cost (compared to some piker, which can go as low as 9!); the question is, is it large enough?


    A Good Point. I'll think some more on this.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:06 pm 
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    And here's verion 3.2


    Changes in this version:
    Siege now moves 2, but cannot move and attack.

    Scout costs have changed, and Terrain Effects on Scouting added.

    Change to take Defence out of the One Shot Wonder clause.

    Change to Unit Costs.


    Have a look in the signature, below.


    I think this is getting close to a practice run. I'm looking for 3 or 4 players for an "Alliance vs the GM" game.

    Any takers?

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:16 pm 
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    I've also added an excel spreadsheet for unit creation and combat resolution.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:35 pm 
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    An example of what the scout map could look like:

    Image

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:35 pm 
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    I like the way you've simplified the game by disallowing stacks to mix... not only units not of the same type but also units of Allied nations.

    I'm a bit concerned about the 250 point start. If I want to make a side based on unipegataurs, I have to spend 100 points for my commander with a Rockin' Out specialty and 120 points for my scout, which leaves me only enough points for one Unipegataur.

    I'm not saying it won't work, but maybe consider raising the starting points a bit.

    I am interested in playing, but I have a couple of other games going on at the moment. I think with 96 hour turns, it should be possible.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:45 am 
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    Yes, a good point.

    I imagine that in a multiplayer game, there would be no need for each player to have a level 4 scout.

    But perhaps I should increase the starting value of the points.

    Let's make it 400.

    Any other players besides Twoy?

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:59 pm 
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    As usual, me :)

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:56 pm 
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    I might be interested, I'll have to look over this.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:20 am 
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    So that's one definite, and two maybes.

    If the maybes become definites, I'll have room for one more player...

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:44 am 
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    No promises I'll understand it all well, but after looking through, I'm in for certain. Thinking a foolamancy based side, maybe with dittomancy archery units as well.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:25 am 
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    Ok. Well, I'll spend some time thinking on the scenario, and then post a set of units for the OpFor.

    I imagine that each faction can create 5 kinds of units (remembering that scouts and commanders are not units).

    I'll start a new thread in a few hours outlining what's going on.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:12 pm 
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    I can't seem to download the spreadsheet. The download button does nothing. I can open the sheet, but then only have the option to save it as an html.

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     Post subject: Re: The Battle for 3.0
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:58 pm 
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    I don't know what that's about. Works for me.

    PM me your email, and I will send it to you.

    Cheers

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