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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:13 pm 
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JohnATallon wrote:
Seriously, you've missed the point I was trying to make. I used the word "also" in my first sentence because a big deal was being made by teratorn about Caesar's status as Heir and potential rebel. In addition to being Heir (an important position, no doubt), Caesar is also Chief Warlord, another important position. Chief Warlords are given tremendous latitude in how they help their side. They are second only to Ruler/Overlord in terms of agency to exercise free will. It has been implied that the title is not one normally transferred lightly, so though mechanically it may only take a simple declaration to change the title, actually doing so is a weighty and momentous occasion, as evidenced by how aghast everyone was that Stanley demoted Parson, and how the only other instances of CWL changes being made in other factions have been due to deaths. It is also heavily implied because Charlie refuses to have a CWL, even though it would save him money in administration of his city and enable Charlie to focus more exclusively on his telecom business.
It's true I misunderstood your point. I'll say a few Hails to the King (Elvis) on Ash Wednesday. But I thank you for providing a perfect example for me to use to support my argument that Don should disband Caesar. A lot has been made of the hit to loyalty for transferring the CWL title without the death of the prior holder. But as you pointed out, Stanley did just that. And not much later (Erf time, it was about 17 years real time) Jack was offered a chance to turn and be with his crush Jillian and away from the horrible Overlord who had so damaged his casters loyalty by swapping out the CWL who had just saved everyone for yet another pretty boy. But did Jack turn? Nope.
JohnATallon wrote:
You've misunderstood again, I believe. I was not referring to Translyvito's ability to survive the fight in Spacerock. I was talking about Jetstone's ability to survive that fight, which is germane to the discussion about the loan because if Jetstone's king is croaked, Jetstone ceases to exist.
Ok, I've misunderstood again. But so have you. The entire point of the loan is to remove the weakness you cite: Jetstone will no longer end if Slately is killed with a living Tram left alive to repay the loan.
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
To clarify, I'm not describing a TV warlord surrendering instead of resisting a siege. I'm thinking about a TV warlord using Charlie to send an unsolicited thinkagram to Carpool, offering to flip an entire city, along with its bats, battle bears, firebirds, and dolls.
You're assuming a lot. All of the unit turning we've seen or heard about has been on an individual level, with the sole exception of natural allies. The lead warlord in some L2 city might offer to turn, but there isn't anything in the comic which suggests that this warlord is able to order the bats, battle bears, firebirds, and dolls to turn with him. And again, the receiving side would have to want relatively low powered units with a very low loyalty score. Prisoners are simply executed, why would turncoats be welcomed?
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
In fact, the word "warlord" is most often used to describe regions where military power is decentralized enough to allow such things to happen.
The label does not mean that at all in Erfworld, where every warlord is subject to absolute orders which can include anything from "slap yourself, hard" (as Parson was ordered by Stanley) to "drop to your knees and pleasure me" (as Maggie described Parson's command abilities to him, and this as the CWL and not even the overlord.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:25 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    It's true I misunderstood your point. I'll say a few Hails to the King (Elvis) on Ash Wednesday. But I thank you for providing a perfect example for me to use to support my argument that Don should disband Caesar. A lot has been made of the hit to loyalty for transferring the CWL title without the death of the prior holder. But as you pointed out, Stanley did just that. And not much later (Erf time, it was about 17 years real time) Jack was offered a chance to turn and be with his crush Jillian and away from the horrible Overlord who had so damaged his casters loyalty by swapping out the CWL who had just saved everyone for yet another pretty boy. But did Jack turn? Nope.


    Jack stated his reasons for not turning to Wanda. He didn't want to play second-fiddle to Ansom in Jillian's heart. If that was the deciding factor then he probably wasn't feeling very loyal to Stanley.

    Oberon wrote:
    JohnATallon wrote:
    You've misunderstood again, I believe. I was not referring to Translyvito's ability to survive the fight in Spacerock. I was talking about Jetstone's ability to survive that fight, which is germane to the discussion about the loan because if Jetstone's king is croaked, Jetstone ceases to exist.
    Ok, I've misunderstood again. But so have you. The entire point of the loan is to remove the weakness you cite: Jetstone will no longer end if Slately is killed with a living Tram left alive to repay the loan.


    Promoting Trammenis to Heir would change Jetstone from having a single point of failure to having two points of failure still in the same hex. Jetstone's a shaky looking side right now, and until either Slately gets out of that hex or Trammenis is promoted and gets out of that hex, they're in danger of having no chance of the loan being repaid. While the entire point of the loan is to remove that weakness, Ben needs assurance that either Slately or Trammenis (if promoted) will survive for the nine turns it takes to repay the loan. My point still stands.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:47 pm 
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    One thing to note (not sure if this has already been discussed) is that a magic portal doesn't block movement out-of-turn.

    So a conservative plan from now could be to have Wanda and Jack retreat back to GK.

    Even though they may not plan to use it, this option does change the game. It's no longer backs to the wall.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:15 pm 
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    mmmm. . . maybe Jack & Wanda (though some of the folks in the MK might demur), but I doubt Parson would be able to make a return trip. Unless Janis & Marie are planning to act as human (erfer?) shields . . .

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:37 pm 
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    Musrum wrote:
    So a conservative plan from now could be to have Wanda and Jack retreat back to GK.



    That would have been the simpler plan, but then Parson wouldn't want to go there. The MK will close GK's portal as soon as they find out what Parson did. Without Wanda they lose the bonus she gives to decrypted in the same hex, and without Wanda decrypting Jetstone dead they'd never survive a flood-attack from Jetstone. Sending Jack back is a good idea though, before the MK closes GK's magic portal. It would be rather funny if they make the tower collapse just as Parson is arriving, making the MK thing a very bad move.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:28 am 
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    I never heard anything about portal closing. It's certianly a possible response though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:10 am 
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    I'd imagine that once Parson uses the Magic Kingdom to travel he will set a dangerous precedent. The neutral casters will have to either support Parson's rule breaking or oppose it.
    Thinkamancers seem to be on Parson's side because of their opposition to Charlie. If we include Bunny in this conspiracy then I would suspect that she might be the one to initiate a revolt on Don King. A sleep hold like the one Isaac performed on Parson would allow Caesar to depose his king without being disbanded. I think Caesar will want to, or be persuaded to, ally with GK.
    I get the impression that Marie will join Parson when he travels through the MK. It is shameful for predictamancers to live in the MK and I think she wants a reunion with Wanda and Jack.
    Charlie has reason to be shocked that Parson is using the MK to travel. He would know that Parson could use the portals to attack his city immediately. Charlie's best response would be to copy this tactic and send an army of archons to capture GK and kill Stanley. The army he has ready to attack Haggar might indicate that many of his forces are not in his city.
    Parson will learn from turned units of Charlie's involvement against GK. He would understand this threat from Charlie to be his greatest and he would be able to neutralise it by capturing the MK and/or taking out Charlie. Parson should know by now that his opponents are inclined to copy his tactics.
    After the city is captured the archons will be able to move throughout the city freely. If the portal stays open archons should be able to enter the MK with Parson, Wanda, Jack, Sizemore and any other casters. This action would force the residents of the MK into decisions- join Parson, oppose him or flee. This would all hinge on whether the pliers can successfully decrypt casters and whether the portals stay open. Parson's caster army with a CWL bonus, archons (some with leadership), golems, dolls, foolamancy, flashes, and most importantly the pliers would be most able to conquer the MK.
    Whether Parson takes out the MK or not, it will be wise to take out Charlie before he has his turn. If Parson did take out the MK his army should be powerful enough to surprise attack every linked city in Erfworld before the end of the day. Conquering Charlescom would unite three tools, give GK an even bigger archon army, communication monopoly and neutralise their biggest threat.
    Seems the portals hold the fate of Erfworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:50 am 
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    Drongo, archons aren't casters, they can't use the portals.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:23 pm 
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    JohnATallon wrote:
    Jack stated his reasons for not turning to Wanda. He didn't want to play second-fiddle to Ansom in Jillian's heart. If that was the deciding factor then he probably wasn't feeling very loyal to Stanley.

    Actually, the reason he stayed on Gobwin Knob's side wasn't that he'd be second to Ansom with Jillian. It's Parson:

    Quote:
    "Yes, all right. We do share the same old affliction," he said, looking down and smiling. "But mine was never quite so crippling. No, if you want to know the true reason I declined her offer, then riddle me this: How is Queen Jillian like Lord Hamster?"

    Some of the rage left her face, but she did not seem at all inclined to play along. After a moment she shook her head slightly.

    Jack used the scroll to gesture all around them. "One has tabled the turn." Movement up ahead caught his eye. The forward stacks were shifting. He pointed the scroll that way, eyes twinkling brightly. A musical lilt crept into his voice. "While the otherrr..."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:40 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    To clarify, I'm not describing a TV warlord surrendering instead of resisting a siege. I'm thinking about a TV warlord using Charlie to send an unsolicited thinkagram to Carpool, offering to flip an entire city, along with its bats, battle bears, firebirds, and dolls.

    You're assuming a lot. All of the unit turning we've seen or heard about has been on an individual level, with the sole exception of natural allies. The lead warlord in some L2 city might offer to turn, but there isn't anything in the comic which suggests that this warlord is able to order the bats, battle bears, firebirds, and dolls to turn with him. And again, the receiving side would have to want relatively low powered units with a very low loyalty score. Prisoners are simply executed, why would turncoats be welcomed?


    We know it's possible to order units to turn. What we don't know is from how high up those orders need to come:
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_48a wrote:
    ...actually send them to the enemy with orders to turn, as a negotiated settlement or peace offering or something.

    My hypothesis is that non-speaking units and golems don't have enough independent spirit to be disloyal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:42 pm 
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    Well, if Sizemore is sufficiently discreet, and if Janis and Marie are covering for him, Parson's jaunt through the MK may not become an issue. He's taking pains to conceal his tactic, and we still aren't fully cognizant of the entire plan. I think that part of it might be to have Jack come through from the JS portal and screen his movement. And yes, Marie might just join up with Parson and become part of GK. Stanley would cwap himself . . . actually, as soon as he gets back from the pantry, he's going to cwap anyway, but still . . .

    We keep assuming that Charlie is aware of what Parson is planning, and I don't think we can be sure of that. Charlie knows that Parson is up to SOMETHING, but that may be only because he has come to understand how Parson thinks. If he KNEW, I suspect he'd have dropped an ominous hint to Trem about how maybe it'd be a good idea to increase the guard on the Portal room . . . that way Parson would be walking into a trap.

    As it stands, the only JS units that are directly aware of the extent of Charlie involvement are Trem & Slately. Everything else is mere rumor, at least in the JS ranks.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:04 pm 
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    JohnATallon wrote:
    Jack stated his reasons for not turning to Wanda. He didn't want to play second-fiddle to Ansom in Jillian's heart. If that was the deciding factor then he probably wasn't feeling very loyal to Stanley.
    You support my point. Jack has a low loyalty, and still did not turn even when offered the opportunity. With this and other examples, it seems a fair statement to make that the TV casters wouldn't just flip sides at the earliest opportunity. The sole unit we've "seen" turn is Wanda herself, in the story Stanley tells of his taking of FAQ. Duncan turned, but hardly counts as his was not voluntary but accomplished through turnamancy.
    JohnATallon wrote:
    Promoting Trammenis to Heir would change Jetstone from having a single point of failure to having two points of failure still in the same hex. Jetstone's a shaky looking side right now, and until either Slately gets out of that hex or Trammenis is promoted and gets out of that hex, they're in danger of having no chance of the loan being repaid. While the entire point of the loan is to remove that weakness, Ben needs assurance that either Slately or Trammenis (if promoted) will survive for the nine turns it takes to repay the loan. My point still stands.
    Your point does not stand. You yourself contradict your point above. Claiming that two equals one doesn't make it correct. Claiming that Jetstone ends if Slately dies with an heir, the heir to be appointed via the loan, is simply a false statement. You also ignore the facts that Slately intends to send Tram away, it is the Jetstone turn, and Ace has a jetpack. :lol:
    Musrum wrote:
    One thing to note (not sure if this has already been discussed) is that a magic portal doesn't block movement out-of-turn.

    So a conservative plan from now could be to have Wanda and Jack retreat back to GK.

    Even though they may not plan to use it, this option does change the game. It's no longer backs to the wall.
    It hasn't been discussed, probably because it's a well known fact. The GK casters and Parson all entered the portal off-turn. You do have a good point about it offering an escape, whether for conservatism or as a reaction to peril. You are right, with the portal room taken the casters at least (and Parson when he gets there) have an out if things go tango uniform.
    teratorn wrote:
    The MK will close GK's portal as soon as they find out what Parson did.
    Why do you assume this is within their power?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:41 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    JohnATallon wrote:
    Jack stated his reasons for not turning to Wanda. He didn't want to play second-fiddle to Ansom in Jillian's heart. If that was the deciding factor then he probably wasn't feeling very loyal to Stanley.
    You support my point. Jack has a low loyalty, and still did not turn even when offered the opportunity. With this and other examples, it seems a fair statement to make that the TV casters wouldn't just flip sides at the earliest opportunity. The sole unit we've "seen" turn is Wanda herself, in the story Stanley tells of his taking of FAQ. Duncan turned, but hardly counts as his was not voluntary but accomplished through turnamancy.


    I actually did not support your point. At best, from the point of view of your argument, I simply made a point about Jack that was not germane to the argument. Alternai pointed out in this post the correct reason for Jack remaining: loyalty to Parson, not to Stanley.

    In any case there is an explicit statement about loyalty made in LIAB_Text_16, "A Ruler does not simply disband his top warlord in a time of crisis, or ever. And if a Ruler did disband a popular warlord, it could affect the Duty and Loyalty of all other units on the side," which I believe completely refutes your argument anyway.

    Oberon wrote:
    JohnATallon wrote:
    Promoting Trammenis to Heir would change Jetstone from having a single point of failure to having two points of failure still in the same hex. Jetstone's a shaky looking side right now, and until either Slately gets out of that hex or Trammenis is promoted and gets out of that hex, they're in danger of having no chance of the loan being repaid. While the entire point of the loan is to remove that weakness, Ben needs assurance that either Slately or Trammenis (if promoted) will survive for the nine turns it takes to repay the loan. My point still stands.
    Your point does not stand. You yourself contradict your point above. Claiming that two equals one doesn't make it correct. Claiming that Jetstone ends if Slately dies with an heir, the heir to be appointed via the loan, is simply a false statement. You also ignore the facts that Slately intends to send Tram away, it is the Jetstone turn, and Ace has a jetpack. :lol:


    Please take extra time to comprehensively read, and take care to not fall into the trap of seizing on the first statement that even slightly seems odd to you.

    My original point, the one that the post you quoted above references, is that Ben needs more information to know if making the loan would be completely ruinous or not. That point still stands because even if the loan is made and the promotion goes through, both Trammenis-as-Heir and King Slately will be in the same hex that holds a large enemy force that can replenish itself with dead Jetstone soldiers. With an enemy force like that in the same hex, there is no sure bet about both King Slately and Trammenis-as-Heir surviving long enough to escape. The only sure thing about a promotion is that it changes Jetstone from having a single point of failure, to having two points of failure in the same place and in the same bad situation. As far as all of Transylvito knows, it is currently not safe for Jetstone forces to attempt to escape by air. There are no tunnels to attempt escape by. Escaping by foot will require getting through the gates, but it appears to be the safest of a set of very bad options. Ben thinks he needs to know if Caesar believes there is any plan of action that would allow the King or Trammenis-as-Heir to escape and survive for the nine rounds it would take to repay the loan.

    I ignored the jetpack because it is effectively invisible. Ben doesn't know anything about it. Caesar and Don King don't know anything about it. Slately and Trammenis know it exists, but do not know what it does. It either won't come into play for the decision about making the gem, or it will come into play as the decision is being made. It doesn't matter either way though for the sake of supporting your argument that Don King should threaten Ben into making the gem. It does matter for the story, but not for your arguments about what Ben should do (at least, not if you are willing to accept that the characters are acting as best they can on imperfect information). If you're making a theoretical argument about what the characters should do if they had perfect information, then maybe you'd have a point about the jetpack.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:25 pm 
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    I wouldn't see Slately even using it if it was brought up. Risking his kingdom on an unproven gizmo isn't really his style.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:33 pm 
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    Drongo wrote:
    I'd imagine that once Parson uses the Magic Kingdom to travel he will set a dangerous precedent. The neutral casters will have to either support Parson's rule breaking or oppose it.
    Thinkamancers seem to be on Parson's side because of their opposition to Charlie. If we include Bunny in this conspiracy then I would suspect that she might be the one to initiate a revolt on Don King. A sleep hold like the one Isaac performed on Parson would allow Caesar to depose his king without being disbanded. I think Caesar will want to, or be persuaded to, ally with GK.
    I get the impression that Marie will join Parson when he travels through the MK. It is shameful for predictamancers to live in the MK and I think she wants a reunion with Wanda and Jack.
    Charlie has reason to be shocked that Parson is using the MK to travel. He would know that Parson could use the portals to attack his city immediately. Charlie's best response would be to copy this tactic and send an army of archons to capture GK and kill Stanley. The army he has ready to attack Haggar might indicate that many of his forces are not in his city.
    Parson will learn from turned units of Charlie's involvement against GK. He would understand this threat from Charlie to be his greatest and he would be able to neutralise it by capturing the MK and/or taking out Charlie. Parson should know by now that his opponents are inclined to copy his tactics.
    After the city is captured the archons will be able to move throughout the city freely. If the portal stays open archons should be able to enter the MK with Parson, Wanda, Jack, Sizemore and any other casters. This action would force the residents of the MK into decisions- join Parson, oppose him or flee. This would all hinge on whether the pliers can successfully decrypt casters and whether the portals stay open. Parson's caster army with a CWL bonus, archons (some with leadership), golems, dolls, foolamancy, flashes, and most importantly the pliers would be most able to conquer the MK.
    Whether Parson takes out the MK or not, it will be wise to take out Charlie before he has his turn. If Parson did take out the MK his army should be powerful enough to surprise attack every linked city in Erfworld before the end of the day. Conquering Charlescom would unite three tools, give GK an even bigger archon army, communication monopoly and neutralise their biggest threat.
    Seems the portals hold the fate of Erfworld.


    There is absolutely nothing Parson can do based on what he knows about Charlie's forces to beat Charlie if Charlie attacks in force.
    Parson does not have the troops to defend against Charlie's 600+ Archons.
    Charlie needs to keep his appearance of neutrality and as such will not act against Parson directly.
    Charlie has no reason to attack MK as that would disrupt the appearance of his neutrality.
    Charlie's entire actions in this battle have not been to hurt Parson, but rather prove that Toolism is invalid as a philosophy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:45 pm 
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    JohnATallon wrote:
    Please take extra time to comprehensively read, and take care to not fall into the trap of seizing on the first statement that even slightly seems odd to you.
    ...
    If you're making a theoretical argument about what the characters should do if they had perfect information, then maybe you'd have a point about the jetpack.


    Very well said. See? I told you that you should post here more often! ;)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:31 pm 
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    JohnATallon wrote:
    I actually did not support your point.
    You did indeed support my point and you did indeed refute your earlier assertion, you just want to avoid that reality now. But this is not possible. You can dodge, but you cannot avoid the record of history.
    JohnATallon wrote:
    In any case there is an explicit statement about loyalty made in LIAB_Text_16, "A Ruler does not simply disband his top warlord in a time of crisis, or ever. And if a Ruler did disband a popular warlord, it could affect the Duty and Loyalty of all other units on the side," which I believe completely refutes your argument anyway.
    Don's issues with his insubordinate CWL is not a counter to my position. Don may not want to disband Caesar and appoint a new CWL, but we have seen an overlord replace a CWL and not have his casters turn in droves. The position that disbanding Caesar would cause such a caster or warlord turning is purely speculative and contrary to the historical record.
    JohnATallon wrote:
    Please take extra time to comprehensively read, and take care to not fall into the trap of seizing on the first statement that even slightly seems odd to you.
    Ok, I'll play along. You said:
    JohnATallon wrote:
    if Jetstone's king is croaked, Jetstone ceases to exist.
    A false statement, since Tram will become the Jetstone heir if the loan is approved, but you insist upon ignoring that reality. You appear to enjoy your cake and eat it also:
    "Caesar is also important because he is their Chief Warlord." I've pointed out that Don would be better off without Caesar as his CWL, and backed that with a rational discussion. This is not a case of "seizing on the first statement" made, despite your attempts to misrepresent the discussion. If anyone is "seizing on the first statement" here, it is you.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:39 am 
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    teratorn wrote:
    Drongo, archons aren't casters, they can't use the portals.


    If this is so then Parson could still get Wanda to decrypt archons when they arrive at Charlie's city with casters. They could immediately summon creatures to help when they get there. They can do this off turn before Charlie can react.
    This would also prevent Charlie from copying the off-turn portal tactic so GK would be safe from an immediate attack.

    Decorus wrote:
    There is absolutely nothing Parson can do based on what he knows about Charlie's forces to beat Charlie if Charlie attacks in force.
    Parson does not have the troops to defend against Charlie's 600+ Archons.
    Charlie needs to keep his appearance of neutrality and as such will not act against Parson directly.
    Charlie has no reason to attack MK as that would disrupt the appearance of his neutrality.
    Charlie's entire actions in this battle have not been to hurt Parson, but rather prove that Toolism is invalid as a philosophy.


    Attacking Charlie before he can react would be Parson's best defence. Eliminate and recruit his biggest threat. Charlie isn't trustworthy enough to be an ally.
    The illusion of Charlie's neutrality will undoubtedly be shed when Parson speaks with the newly decrypted troops. Adam may have already spilled the beans to Jack and Wanda. Charlie almost organised Wanda's demise and the downfall of GK. Charlie doesn't seem to be regarded as a neutral force in the MK with the thinkamancers and others treating him as their enemy.
    Charlie wouldn't want to attack the MK but Parson might. Guess it would all depend on how useful a decrypted caster is.
    Charlie seems eager to capture and turn Parson. His recent discussion with Jillian might persuade him that he can capture and turn Wanda too.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:15 am 
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    We also are unsure of just how large a force charlies archons could handle by themselves. They're tough, but they're far from a erf shaking juggernaut that could defeat everything and anything.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 55
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:00 am 
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    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary
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    Oberon, the crucial thing is, Ben doesn't know whether either of them can get out, and, in the event that one can, whether they'll be able to hold on for 8 more turns while holding enough cities to repay the loan. This is not obvious, especially to a moneymancer rather than a general. Getting a second opinion makes a lot of sense.

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