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 Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:08 pm 
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gameboy1234 wrote:
I would have thought that they'd absorb some spells and arrows first, but I guess something about the self-kill makes it preferable? I can't think of what though. .


Yeah, that's a good question.

I think I can imagine a reason why - to make all the dwagons fall at the same time, and to have the element of surprise. If they croak and fall one at a time (as they would if they're being slowly shot down), then two things happen:
1) The enemy gets out of the way of the corpses. Once the first one falls and almost hits someone, they'll know to look up and avoid the falling dwagons.
2) Since the corpses fall one at a time, Parson either has to leave Wanda in the airspace while dwagons are being shot down all around (dangerous!) or she has to come down and decrypt them one at a time (loses the element of surprise badly, puts the grounded dwagons in more danger because they're outnumbered.)

So I can see some benefit to having them all fall and be decrypted at the same time, though I don't know whether this is the benefit that Parson has in mind.

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assume that if you 'harvest', and thus croak, a living dwagon, that Wanda can decrypt the corpse, but that the now-decrypted dwagon will still dissapear next turn when the rations show up.


I'm not convinced that'll happen. It might be that doing something with the corpse - burning it, or decrypting it, or something else - prevents it from being used for rations. Parson didn't talk about that in his Klog, but he didn't rule it out either.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:09 pm 
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    the dwagons cannot touch the ground at all unless they find a way to make them fall (oops made a rhyme). it is off turn and the boarder between the ground and the airspace is the ground, which means they needed to force their dwagons to the ground in whatever means possible to minimize the height that the fall roll calculates from (I am assuming that the fall mechanic only counts the disembarkation point for falling rather than the distance the dead dwagon dropped from the sky.

    Ironically the tools seem to be geared towards creating a utopian side (hammer makes dwagons which are a heavy unit, Pliers can bring heavies back to life, dish brings high quality knight units that benefit from upkeep cheapness) as long as the bonus rations pop even if the harvested unit somehow lives again. it seems to be a place the rules "blink" a little

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:16 pm 
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    Wakky wrote:
    The upshot of controlling the atrium is that it will allow the rest of the troops to land, after which Wanda decrypts everything in sight, leaving them in a far better position than before.

    See? It's all perfectly simple. :mrgreen:


    I don't think that you can cross zones off-turn regardless if you control the zone or not. You could have units in one zone (the airspace) and others in another (the courtyard) but once you end turn, you are stuck in your respective city zones.

    So we learn that you can promote allied units (e.g. Hobgobwins, elves, marbits) to heavy units but not, apparently, your own 'human' units. We learn the mechanics of harvesting, and we learn what it really meant for Faq to be a 'bubble' kingdom. I remember when Jillian mentioned that to Ansom and he said "that's impossible". Now we know why - you can't maintain an army to defend your kingdom without actively attacking other sides. Faq kept a small army, used a predictamancer/foolamancer team to prevent the NEED for defense, and perhaps made use of Wanda to uncroak their own units to save upkeep for a few turns. Having to kill/uncroak your own people/units could easily make someone as jaded as Wanda, I surmise.

    Essentially Faq maintained a kingdom that did not need to attack or defend from neighboring sides to maintain its existence. They DID have to resort to mercenary work now and then, of course, but nowhere near their own side so they could remain 'invisible'.

    Cool.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:24 pm 
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    Awesome! I called it! Woooo!

    Croak the dwagons, riders fall. Then on the ground, decrypt them.

    I didn't call the "promote to heavy" trick, and I didn't expect croaking dwagons to be automatic. But awesome, nonetheless.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:28 pm 
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    Crackpot theory number 12:

    This plan works. Wanda decrypts the dragons, and takes the city. And then uses the city as a capital site to start a new side, with the entire army (including the now decrypted dragons) obeying all of her orders.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:33 pm 
     
    Yosarian wrote:
    Crackpot theory number 12:

    This plan works. Wanda decrypts the dragons, and takes the city. And then uses the city as a capital site to start a new side, with the entire army (including the now decrypted dragons) obeying all of her orders.


    Very awesome, and what I've been wanting for ages. It's especially awesome because Parson will be with Wanda now, and she can turn him or whatever, so he finally gets out of Stanley's employ... but they could also have done this after taking Unaroyal, and is Stanely such an impediment to Wanda now anyhow? It seems easier just to play along.

    I am not super satisfied with the explanation about rations (if the Dwagons still turn into rations after the turn, wouldn't it be much wiser to take the extra 10 seconds of stabbing the dwagons in the head, to ensure that GK doesn't lose them next turn? Also, shouldn't Parson have ordered the Hobgobwins to strategically mount the weaker/stronger units, depending on what happens to the ration/decrypted ones?

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:33 pm 
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    Knight13 wrote:
    Aside from the harvesting thing and the possibility of self-sufficiency, this klog gives us another interesting bit of information. In order for a kingdom to maintain an army large enough to defend itself from its neighbors, it has to attack other kingdoms, since the cities alone don't produce enough shmuckers to pay upkeep.


    Well, a city can probably be peacefully self-sufficient if it also has farms or mines or whatever. I mean, FAQ was.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:38 pm 
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    Yosarian wrote:
    Knight13 wrote:
    Aside from the harvesting thing and the possibility of self-sufficiency, this klog gives us another interesting bit of information. In order for a kingdom to maintain an army large enough to defend itself from its neighbors, it has to attack other kingdoms, since the cities alone don't produce enough shmuckers to pay upkeep.


    Well, a city can probably be peacefully self-sufficient if it also has farms or mines or whatever. I mean, FAQ was.


    based on the exchange between Barbarian Princess Jillian and Prince Ansom in Book 1, such kingdoms are considered 'impossible'

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:40 pm 
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    Ace wrote:
    Very awesome, and what I've been wanting for ages. It's especially awesome because Parson will be with Wanda now, and she can turn him or whatever, so he finally gets out of Stanley's employ


    Eh. I donno about that. The way I see it playing out is Parson, with Gobwin Knob but no real army, against Wanda, with vast armies of undead.

    I mean, he needs some kind of powerful enemy to demonstrate his genius against. ;)

    Quote:
    ... but they could also have done this after taking Unaroyal, and is Stanely such an impediment to Wanda now anyhow? It seems easier just to play along.


    The dwagons were still loyal to Stanely then, though. If she'd tried it then, she would have been fighting them, and it would have been ugly. Even if she'd won, she'd be weakened, and the royal coalition would still be strong and out for her blood.

    Also...I don't really know why she'd do it, but she is a crazy religious fanatic driven by some prophecy we don't actually know the details of. She might do anything.

    Quote:
    I am not super satisfied with the explanation about rations (if the Dwagons still turn into rations after the turn, wouldn't it be much wiser to take the extra 10 seconds of stabbing the dwagons in the head, to ensure that GK doesn't lose them next turn?


    They only turn into rations if the bodies vanish, I think. If she decrypts them, they don't.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:50 pm 
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    Yosarian wrote:
    Crackpot theory number 12:

    This plan works. Wanda decrypts the dragons, and takes the city. And then uses the city as a capital site to start a new side, with the entire army (including the now decrypted dragons) obeying all of her orders.



    Actually I think this too. Parson and Wanda will be out of the capitol, and therefore able to split off and found their own side. Probably with Maggie and Sizemore and a bunch of decrypted casters.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:55 pm 
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    joosy wrote:


    So we learn that you can promote allied units (e.g. Hobgobwins, elves, marbits) to heavy units but not, apparently, your own 'human' units.


    Hmm, I'm not sure how much we learned about that. We learned that Hobgobwins can be promoted to heavy, and that the decrypted units there probably can't.

    But I'm not convinced that you're right about your generalization. How do we know that elves, marbits, or other natural allies can be upgraded this way? I, personally, had assumed it was to do with unit type - Hobgobwins can, humans can't. Maybe Elves can and Marbits can't, maybe only some Elves can and others can't, maybe neither Elves nor Marbits have the option to upgrade to heavy. Do we know that it's specifically because they're natural allies, rather than because they're specifically Hobgobwins?

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:00 pm 
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    CelebrenIthil wrote:
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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:01 pm 
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    Re: Wanda turning -

    Seems unlikely to me.

    Everything that we're saying here was also true after TBfGK. Wanda had just created a huge decrypted army, Stanley was army-less and out of the picture, the RCC was shattered... why didn't she turn then? She had GK, after all.

    Splitting off now would mean splitting up the Tools between sides. Everything she's said indicates that she wants to unite them, not divide them.

    Splitting off now would mean that she fights AGAINST the Warlord who just showed her how to turn a guaranteed loss into a likely victory. For the second time.

    So why would she turn now, when she didn't before? I mean, it might happen, anything's possible. But why should we expect it?

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:04 pm 
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    Krennson wrote:
    evil thought....

    assume that if you 'harvest', and thus croak, a living dwagon, that Wanda can decrypt the corpse, but that the now-decrypted dwagon will still dissapear next turn when the rations show up.

    We know that when a decrypted unit is killed, it dissapears in a cloud of dust, unlike croaking a normal unit, which leaves a body instead.

    What happens if you harvest a decrypted unit? does it leave a body in that circumstance? and can that body be decrypted a second time?

    if so, you can 'harvest' any decrypted unit in combat which is down to its last few hitpoints, then decrypt it a second time to restore it to full hitpoints. and you can run that loop forever until the next turn comes around, and the unit finally disappears into rations.

    thus, if you can protect wanda, any harvestable force can be made effectively immortal for one and only one turn- and then will be utterly destroyed when the next turn comes around.

    one interesting side effect of that: if you harvest-decrypt the same unit ten times in one turn, do you get one unit's worth of rations next turn, or ten times that amount?


    I wouldn't assume that. it's quite possible the decryption overrides the harvest 'flag' so that it then remains as a normal decrypted unit. course it could work either way.
    As for harvesting decrypted units. doubt that would work, only selected units can be harvested, and as you said not corpse, and if it did, it would probably override the decrypted 'flag'

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    Last edited by Snowtitan on Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:05 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Re: Wanda turning -

    Seems unlikely to me.

    Everything that we're saying here was also true after TBfGK. Wanda had just created a huge decrypted army, Stanley was army-less and out of the picture, the RCC was shattered... why didn't she turn then? She had GK, after all.

    Splitting off now would mean splitting up the Tools between sides. Everything she's said indicates that she wants to unite them, not divide them.

    Splitting off now would mean that she fights AGAINST the Warlord who just showed her how to turn a guaranteed loss into a likely victory. For the second time.

    So why would she turn now, when she didn't before? I mean, it might happen, anything's possible. But why should we expect it?


    This, and Wanda has already stated - repeatedly - that she will not turn against Stanley. She thinks that the Arkentools need to be brought together. Wanda isn't going to split off.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:10 pm 
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    I personally can't wait to see the look on Tram's face. Confusion? Oh crap moment? Maybe he'll think Parson is killing his troops so JS can't get the exp???

    Whatever his expression I hope that it eventually gets blown up to poster size.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:18 pm 
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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:23 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    I don't think that you can cross zones off-turn regardless if you control the zone or not. You could have units in one zone (the airspace) and others in another (the courtyard) but once you end turn, you are stuck in your respective city zones.


    I think you're right, but it's easy to confuse city zones (airspace, garrison, tunnels) with sub-zones (courtyard, tower, & dungeon are sub-zones of the garrison, where a gate could be a subzone of the outer wall). The Garrison here includes the atrium, as we saw in text update 25:
    "Most Level 5 cities were designed with some unique or augmented feature. Some designs emphasized outer walls or tower or tunnel structures, often at the expense of other parts of the city. Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

    At its center, a vaulted roof of smoked glass panels covered what would be the open courtyard in a more typical Level 5 design. This formed a cavernous area they called the atrium. Troops could be trained and quartered here, and indeed there were two regiments of infantry already assembling. He would probably order most nonessential units in here for the battle."

    So from the atrium, the Gobwin Knob troops can take the whole garrison.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:27 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    joosy wrote:


    So we learn that you can promote allied units (e.g. Hobgobwins, elves, marbits) to heavy units but not, apparently, your own 'human' units.


    Hmm, I'm not sure how much we learned about that. We learned that Hobgobwins can be promoted to heavy, and that the decrypted units there probably can't.

    But I'm not convinced that you're right about your generalization. How do we know that elves, marbits, or other natural allies can be upgraded this way? I, personally, had assumed it was to do with unit type - Hobgobwins can, humans can't. Maybe Elves can and Marbits can't, maybe only some Elves can and others can't, maybe neither Elves nor Marbits have the option to upgrade to heavy. Do we know that it's specifically because they're natural allies, rather than because they're specifically Hobgobwins?


    Thanks. I was typing fast. I guess what I meant was that there was something unique about the Hobgobwin types vs the other types of units that they were not promoted to heavy status.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:28 pm 
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    dirocyn wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    I don't think that you can cross zones off-turn regardless if you control the zone or not. You could have units in one zone (the airspace) and others in another (the courtyard) but once you end turn, you are stuck in your respective city zones.


    I think you're right, but it's easy to confuse city zones (airspace, garrison, tunnels) with sub-zones (courtyard, tower, & dungeon are sub-zones of the garrison, where a gate could be a subzone of the outer wall). The Garrison here includes the atrium, as we saw in text update 25:
    "Most Level 5 cities were designed with some unique or augmented feature. Some designs emphasized outer walls or tower or tunnel structures, often at the expense of other parts of the city. Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

    At its center, a vaulted roof of smoked glass panels covered what would be the open courtyard in a more typical Level 5 design. This formed a cavernous area they called the atrium. Troops could be trained and quartered here, and indeed there were two regiments of infantry already assembling. He would probably order most nonessential units in here for the battle."

    So from the atrium, the Gobwin Knob troops can take the whole garrison.


    yes, but Wanda cannot move from airspace to atrium/courtyard without the fall mechanic or some other exploit regardless of the fact if Gk controls the atrium/courtyard.

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