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 Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:50 pm 
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What makes people think that Parson knows how to make gunpowder offhand, or even if he did know how to make gunpowder, how would he know how to get the ingredients from nature? And even if they did have gunpowder already, could he really make an effective gun? I mean, they did have guns throughout the middle ages, they just weren't used because they weren't as effective as crossbows. We don't even know if Parson could find a smith to help him out, and it is seems pretty implausible that Parson is carrying around the information to make effective modern weaponry in his head, however smart he may be.

Seriously, if any of you were suddenly transported to the middle ages with no preparation or reference material, what could you really invent? Folding chairs maybe, modern weapons probably not.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:43 am 
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    LordDarksea wrote:
    so what happens when you uncroak spent black-powder...?

    Judging by what happened when they uncroaked the volcano? A fire.

    Glome wrote:
    What makes people think that Parson knows how to make gunpowder offhand, or even if he did know how to make gunpowder, how would he know how to get the ingredients from nature? And even if they did have gunpowder already, could he really make an effective gun? I mean, they did have guns throughout the middle ages, they just weren't used because they weren't as effective as crossbows. We don't even know if Parson could find a smith to help him out, and it is seems pretty implausible that Parson is carrying around the information to make effective modern weaponry in his head, however smart he may be.

    Seriously, if any of you were suddenly transported to the middle ages with no preparation or reference material, what could you really invent? Folding chairs maybe, modern weapons probably not.

    What, didn't you see Army of Darkness? :)

    Seriously, though, I'd have to agree with you. There are things more practical and more useful than black powder that Parson could be "inventing" right now.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:59 am 
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    Glome wrote:
    What makes people think that Parson knows how to make gunpowder offhand, or even if he did know how to make gunpowder, how would he know how to get the ingredients from nature?


    Eh, urea, burnt plants, biological waste(feces, decaying creatures) all add up to get potassium nitrates, or salt petre. And we do have a guy who specializes in dealing with huge pits of waste.

    Granted the process takes over a year, they'd have the resources for it.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:32 am 
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    Sethram wrote:
    Glome wrote:
    What makes people think that Parson knows how to make gunpowder offhand, or even if he did know how to make gunpowder, how would he know how to get the ingredients from nature?


    Eh, urea, burnt plants, biological waste(feces, decaying creatures) all add up to get potassium nitrates, or salt petre. And we do have a guy who specializes in dealing with huge pits of waste.

    Granted the process takes over a year, they'd have the resources for it.


    Right, but I'm not arguing that the ingredients are impossible to get in Erfworld, rather I'm arguing that it is highly unlikely that Parson knows what the ingredients of gunpowder are off the top of his head, that he knows what percentage of each ingredient he needs to mix or how to mix it, and how to obtain these ingredients, even though this all can be done.

    And as you point out, even if he did know all this stuff, it would still take a year to produce, by which time the story will probably will have already resolved itself. And even when he does have black powder, he still needs to find an effective use for it, it is a slow burn explosive after all, primitive guns aren't very effective and making an functioning cannon would probably take a craftsman to get right. I suppose petards are possible, but how many of them could he possible make even after a year? Also, would he know how to make fuses?

    No, while I'm sure there is some foreshadowing going on here, I'm pretty sure this interlude isn't foreshadowing the use gunpowder.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:35 am 
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    Glome wrote:


    Right, but I'm not arguing that the ingredients are impossible to get in Erfworld, rather I'm arguing that it is highly unlikely that Parson knows what the ingredients of gunpowder are off the top of his head, that he knows what percentage of each ingredient he needs to mix or how to mix it, and how to obtain these ingredients, even though this all can be done.


    Well I do. 75% saltpeter, 15% charcoal, 10% Sulphur. I've known this since I was about 12 and I got into wargaming. Read lots of kids books on medieval warfare. It was in my chemistry book too of course. I am freakishly knowledgable?

    Parson has a masterclass dirtamancer to help him find and process these materials. P108 suggests Sizemore know something about chemistry already.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:34 am 
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    Saltpeter. Cool. Where do you get it? Just knowing the ingredient doesn't mean you can make it. And if you knew it came from feces, would you be able to figure out how to recognize it if you tried to experiment in order to get it? Or even if you knew the theory, without having practiced it, could you do it correctly from the knowledge in your brain, without the original text? And no, don't post to prove you do know it: you can find it online if you know where to look, so you're not proving anything. The point is that a little knowledge is not enough.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:59 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Saltpeter. Cool. Where do you get it? Just knowing the ingredient doesn't mean you can make it. And if you knew it came from feces, would you be able to figure out how to recognize it if you tried to experiment in order to get it? Or even if you knew the theory, without having practiced it, could you do it correctly from the knowledge in your brain, without the original text? And no, don't post to prove you do know it: you can find it online if you know where to look, so you're not proving anything. The point is that a little knowledge is not enough.


    Without magic it would be a long process and trial and error. After that, scaling the processing would require a lot of time and effort. It would be very dangerous.

    Parson has a great advantage in this regard - magic.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:37 am 
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    Anton Gaist wrote:
    I mean, Stanley betrayed Saline I.V., who was his Overlord. So what's stopping Parson from betraying Stanley?


    It's just an assumption you're making that Stanley betrayed Salive IV. It seems an obvious conclusion based on the suspiciousness of those events, but we still don't have confirmation that Stanley actually betrayed his Overlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:02 pm 
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    Unrelated, but how much XP did Parson gain from the last battle? He was in another zone when the enemy units actually died, so he's probably still at level 2, or whatever it was.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:24 pm 
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    Zeku wrote:
    Unrelated, but how much XP did Parson gain from the last battle? He was in another zone when the enemy units actually died, so he's probably still at level 2, or whatever it was.


    Seeing as how the only fight that Parson personally participated in croaked 1 weiner-rammer plus rider, and Maggie participated in the fight as well, odds are he got little or no XP at all. There has been some discussion that he may get XP from leading (deaths caused under his command may grant some small amount of XP), but we don't have any proof yet that Parson will gain levels at all.

    Since he appears to have no stats, the argument can be made that he also has no levels (although the world does react to him as if he did have them - troops get a leadership bonus from him, for example).

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:35 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Since he appears to have no stats, the argument can be made that he also has no levels (although the world does react to him as if he did have them - troops get a leadership bonus from him, for example).

    This again. How many more times is this fallacy going to be raised?

    We know Parson has stats. Parson knows he has stats. They aren't visible, but he worked out his leadership stat empirically. So please, let's end this “he has no stats” boop.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:45 pm 
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    Glome wrote:
    No, while I'm sure there is some foreshadowing going on here, I'm pretty sure this interlude isn't foreshadowing the use gunpowder.


    Yeah, I will agree there, I just wanted to flex my knowledge muscle. We're not even sure the mechanics of the game world would allow it.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:58 pm 
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    Aris Katsaris wrote:
    Anton Gaist wrote:
    I mean, Stanley betrayed Saline I.V., who was his Overlord. So what's stopping Parson from betraying Stanley?


    It's just an assumption you're making that Stanley betrayed Salive IV. It seems an obvious conclusion based on the suspiciousness of those events, but we still don't have confirmation that Stanley actually betrayed his Overlord.


    Unless the writers deliberately contradict all the evidence presented, Stanley set up the revolt. I'm getting tired of the small number of people screaming "OMG SPECULATION!" every time somebody builds on something that wasn't explicitly said, but heavily implied or evidenced.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:32 pm 
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    Darkside007 wrote:
    Unless the writers deliberately contradict all the evidence presented, Stanley set up the revolt. I'm getting tired of the small number of people screaming "OMG SPECULATION!" every time somebody builds on something that wasn't explicitly said, but heavily implied or evidenced.


    But it is speculation. More importantly, I think it's a lot more likely that Wanda was the one who instigated Saline IV's death. Given her skill with Thinkmancy spells (remember Jillian and the guard outside?) And with her lack of loyalty spell, it almost has to be her. I doubt Stanley could even conceive of a plot against his overlord, much less carry it out. He really is an imbecile.

    Thinkmancy suggestion on some Hobgoblins, croak them when Stanley gets back for regicide, all clean and neat and no one the wiser.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:36 pm 
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    Arkenputtyknife wrote:
    We know Parson has stats. Parson knows he has stats. They aren't visible, but he worked out his leadership stat empirically. So please, let's end this “he has no stats” boop.



    That, and Parson's Stupid Meal told us all that Parson is level 2.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:29 pm 
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    gameboy1234 wrote:
    That, and Parson's Stupid Meal told us all that Parson is level 2.

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html


    Also, they inferred that his leadership was 2, on a previous klog

    This lends support that the leadership stat = level for warlords.

    Ofc, that may not be true for higher levels.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:28 pm 
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    gameboy1234 wrote:
    Darkside007 wrote:
    Unless the writers deliberately contradict all the evidence presented, Stanley set up the revolt. I'm getting tired of the small number of people screaming "OMG SPECULATION!" every time somebody builds on something that wasn't explicitly said, but heavily implied or evidenced.


    But it is speculation. More importantly, I think it's a lot more likely that Wanda was the one who instigated Saline IV's death. Given her skill with Thinkmancy spells (remember Jillian and the guard outside?) And with her lack of loyalty spell, it almost has to be her. I doubt Stanley could even conceive of a plot against his overlord, much less carry it out. He really is an imbecile.

    Thinkmancy suggestion on some Hobgoblins, croak them when Stanley gets back for regicide, all clean and neat and no one the wiser.


    And then Stanley assumes Overlord status over the same gobwins that croaked their previous rule? Not likely. Additionally, that'd require Wanda be in GK when the gobwins revolt, which is entirely and completely baseless.


    Last edited by Darkside007 on Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:33 pm 
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    Hi, new poster and relatively new lurker.

    So, I'm guessing that the reactions could have something to do with Loyalty. Sizemore has basically been treated like crap the whole time and is probably less Loyal than Maggie. Also, I'm curious to know how many other Warlords and Casters they have, if any. Thinkamancy has been massively important and if there's a whole bunch of new Casters hanging around, it'd be interesting to see what he can link up.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:26 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Saltpeter. Cool. Where do you get it? Just knowing the ingredient doesn't mean you can make it. And if you knew it came from feces, would you be able to figure out how to recognize it if you tried to experiment in order to get it? Or even if you knew the theory, without having practiced it, could you do it correctly from the knowledge in your brain, without the original text? And no, don't post to prove you do know it: you can find it online if you know where to look, so you're not proving anything. The point is that a little knowledge is not enough.


    Dude, consider Parson a moment. He's a GAMER. Come on, I'd wager three out of every five of us on this forum knows this stuff, if for no other reason than to have researched it to be able to try and get past a GM at one point. And this guy is such a gamer geek that he is not only GMing, but building his own damn games... yea, it's a safe bet that he knows this stuff. By heart. Because not only did he likely try to "McGuyver" it at one point, he's probably had at least one gamer try and do it in one of HIS games.

    However, the problem everyone is forgetting is that Erfworld doesn't operate on Physics, it operates on Game Mechanics, which are variously interpreted by various characters which Parson has interacted with. Straining out urea and other biological waste products may not create a nitrate-rich sludge to turn into saltpeter in Erfworld because such things simply do not exist.

    Besides, it's much easier to create Nitric Acid and start chucking glass vials of the stuff over walls. That would kill just about everything they've seen so far but the glass golems (Tcholatchies?), who would not be affected by it. Of course, that might destroy enough of the body to keep them from being Decrypted, so that might not be such a good idea.

    In short, 'inventing' anything using real-world physics might not work, simply because Erfworld does not operate with real-world physics, it operates with Game Mechanics, which have already proven to be somewhat different than modern-day interpretations of the laws which govern reality (specifically in the creation and/or destruction of matter being the most flagrant).

    Just because they may have fireworks doesn't mean they have gunpowder. It might be fueled by something else entirely, or the contents are simply 'undefined stuff' and are irrelevant because the item which popped is 'fireworks' with the special ability 'launch and make pretty lights in the sky', with no regard as to its composition.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 006
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:56 am 
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    shneekeythelost wrote:
    However, the problem everyone is forgetting is that Erfworld doesn't operate on Physics, it operates on Game Mechanics, which are variously interpreted by various characters which Parson has interacted with. Straining out urea and other biological waste products may not create a nitrate-rich sludge to turn into saltpeter in Erfworld because such things simply do not exist.


    To some extent. I think we'll see Parson exploring this. The author is on record as saying Erfworld is not a game. In any case. I'am not wholely convinced Parson will be making gunpowder anyway.

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