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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:14 am 
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atalex wrote:
Ytaker wrote:
atalex wrote:
With all this arguing about the morality and likely consequences of Parson violating the MK's alleged neutrality, I'm going to laugh my ass off if Janice, armed with intel from the predictomancer, manipulates events so that no one ever even knows that Parson used the portal shortcut. It took 70 or so turns for the RCC to find out how they lost the Battle for Gobwin Knob and that was only because Charlie told them. If no one at Jetstone lives to tell how Parson entered through a portal, I think it's quite likely that the MK will privately let GK know that its portal access will henceforth be restricted but otherwise the MK will be more concerned with making sure no one ever finds out what happened.


Charlie and Trammenis both know he can enter the magic kingdom. They're both smart enough to consider the implications.


Yes, but no one listens to Charlie anymore, and Trammenis may be minutes away from croaking. Also, if no one sees him exit the portal on the JS side and he just "shows up" in the middle of combat, there could be other explanations that are equally plausible, especially if MK elects to conceal how he actually did it.


Yes they do, Trammenis did listen and got good intelligence. Trammenis is probably serving as an author's soapbox, in terms of his religious and political views- he's a diplomat rather than a warmonger, he believes everyone should have everything they want in heaven, he's smarter than charlie, earns more money for his father than any of the other sons- you really get the sense that the author likes him a lot.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:30 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    V (of V for Vendetta) wrote:
    Anarchy wears two faces, both creator and destroyer. Thus destroyers topple empires, make a canvas of clean rubble where creators can then build a better world. Rubble, once achieved, makes further ruins' means irrelevant.

    Away with our explosives then! Away with our destroyers! They have no place within our better world.

    But let us raise a toast to all our bombers, all our bastards, most unlovely and most unforgivable. Let's drink their health ...

    ... then meet with them no more.

    You do know that this statement was to go in effect only at a hypothetical moment where an anarchic society had been achieved, right? Nothing with territorial "you can't come here because you're not the right type of person" laws comes anywhere near anarchic ideals.

    Up until such a time, explosions were the guy's preferred method of contribution.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:09 pm 
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    Raza wrote:
    You do know that this statement was to go in effect only at a hypothetical moment where an anarchic society had been achieved, right?


    Oh yes, I'm well aware. I'm aware also that Alan Moore was not intending to make a simple story of an untarnished protagonist. V is a monster, and V would agree to that; those are among his last words before committing suicide by cop, hiw work completed.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:42 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user is a Tool! Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    There's some disagreement as to what Parson is breaking/challenging now. Is it a law? Is it a formalized, written down act layed down by some MK ruling body? Enforced by some authority in the MK? A legal basis for other acts, treaties this time, with sides connected by portals?


    We're told. "Forbidden by convention."

    Convention isn't law or treaty. Its simply "the norm". Its not "you can't send casters"...its "you don't send casters". There is what appears to an "understanding". Nothing more.

    Quote:
    it's clear that it's about how you do not send units (or casters, since only they can pass) through MK portals into cities you don't control. Sizemore is citing this rule to attempt and prevent Parson's run.


    By extending a princicple that previously applied only to casters to a warlord. Parsons called him on that attemtp to extend the interpretation of convention.

    Quote:
    Does the MK have a right to impose a portal-usage rule at all? If the portals were constructed by casters, the feeling of the forum tends to yes, and I agree. If the portals were made by the Titans, the feeling shifts no, and here I disagree. Here on Earth, a country has control about who's allowed in their airspace- but they did not construct the atmosphere!


    Apparently Parson has a right to use the Portals which the MK doesn't recognise. Im that case, either the MK is disobeying its own laws or they are not in a position to make such a law. Either way, your analogy wrt country appears flawed. If Parson has a right, from whatever, to use the Portals, the MK has no right to stop him. It may or may not inconvenience them, or cause them trouble but that they, as individuals, don't recognise his right to make use of them or even want him there isn't enough to make the rule that states who cvan or cannot enter the MK irrelevant.

    Which is where I think your system and analogy breaks down. These are not really nations or countries with defined laws. These are gamepieces and sides which follow laws written down in a game book and those pieces cannot change or break those rules.

    Which is what it seems to me...simply put, the games rules allow certain units to enter the MK. As Parson can survive and enter, he has a right to be there and the other people who can do so have no right to stop him no matter what they feel.


    Quote:
    The rule Parson is breaking now is about disrespecting how a neutral state wants to govern itself. I think it's well whithin a state's rights to chose its own house rules.


    House rules are not created by the game pieces themselves but by the players. The rule Parsons is breaking is a convention and which isn't actually binding on anyone beyond the fact that its convention.


    Quote:
    Guests of that state should abide, unless they wish to declare aggression and face the consequences of disrespecting that state's rights. Because, we all agree, if this rule is broken the MK will get in GK's business something fierce.


    Actually, I'm not sure. The casters don't like GK...but its inhabitants have already shown hostility bey trying to deny Parsons right to enter the state.

    Quote:
    It's actually a comendable intention. Too bad that to pursue it, he decides to break a neutral kingdom's "house rules", prompting a forumer here to compare the rules that a country uses to make itself function, to the house rules that his/her game group can decide on a whim to abolish. I thought that we were done thinking about Erfworld as a mere game.


    Erfowrd is a game world. It follows game logic. Its physical laws appear defined by gaming convention and rules. Parson bends those rules, but most don't appear able to break them at all. They have stats, movement limits, turns, etc and limitation on what can and cannot be done and when. Parson has to follow the rules...such as when he patrols his city.

    Given that, the notion that there are laws as we know them is likely wrong.

    Parson has a right to enter the MK because he can go there. Because he can go there, the game rules allow it. Because the game rules allow it, the people already there do not themselves have the right to deny him access. If they don't have that right, all they can really do is either get physical or fume.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:11 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Raza wrote:
    You do know that this statement was to go in effect only at a hypothetical moment where an anarchic society had been achieved, right?


    Oh yes, I'm well aware. I'm aware also that Alan Moore was not intending to make a simple story of an untarnished protagonist. V is a monster, and V would agree to that; those are among his last words before committing suicide by cop, hiw work completed.

    'Monster' can have many different meanings. Personally, V is one of the few ethical rolemodels I'd accept in western pop culture.

    The suicide by cop thing was a bit cryptic, but his ideals for the world in general made a lot more sense than his sense of personal destiny.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:58 am 
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    Jack is apparently left-handed.

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