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 Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:34 pm 
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Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
I wonder if that buzzing noise is the result of an thinkamany spell. Maybe Wanda once put Stanley under a loyalty spell, and not the other way.


This was my first impression as well. It would make a great deal of sense for Wanda to put a stupid spell on Stanley. This might also explain how such a stupid person could be a good leader before he found the Hammer. And help Wanda manipulate him into getting her a 'Tool.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:18 pm 
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    'Kay


    Am I just the only one who thinks that Wanda is the true overlord here? She has her chief warlord Stanley the Tool under a couple of obscuring spells, just like she tried to pull with Jillian. I think it's just another one of Wanda's defenses, that she appears to be a sub in order to dominate. Heh. Unintentional, but still amusing. Anyway, I'm banking my money on Wanda as the true power in Gobwin Knob.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:51 pm 
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    IceCavalier wrote:
    Anyway, I'm banking my money on Wanda as the true power in Gobwin Knob.


    It does sound like she has massive influence on Stanley, but I don't think it is formal power.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:09 pm 
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    Stanley is so small, not just in stature but minded (of course we knew this before but this update really drives that point home for me). He surveys his new army and fears it. He See's Wanda attuned to a Tool of the Titans and privately questions the Titans themselves.

    I see where he should be rejoicing at his sides new found strength he has only fear and suspicion. Wanda may have been able to easily manipulate him in the past but I think those days may be gone. He now views her with suspicion and possibly as a threat.

    Great Update BTW. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but sometimes I find the words just as satisfying.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:43 am 
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    KBF wrote:
    You are forgetting something. Wanda counts as an enemy if she turns. I'm not saying she will, but when your life is in the hands of someone that was on the other side and turned for reasons that aren't actually beneficial to her anymore, you have a right to be nervous.


    Stanley has no way of knowing that -- obviously, he doesn't know Wanda's agenda (gain an Arkentool for herself) or he never would have trusted her as much as he did.

    From Stanley's viewpoint, she first came to him with an offer to betray her own side to him, and then turned completely after her side was (as far as Stanley knew) wiped out as a result. Even someone as egotistical and noobish about grand strategy and politics as Stanley would want some explanation of her motivation for doing so... my best guess is that Wanda played up (or even first suggested) the notion that Stanley was favored by the Titans and that she wanted to be on the divinely favored side. That would explain why Stanley was so confident of her loyalty that he didn't see any need for a loyalty spell -- relying on something like that would almost seem like an expression of distrust in his Titanic mandate.

    Now, with recent experiences shaking his confidence, he may be rethinking all this....

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    Last edited by SteveMB on Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:44 pm 
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    Alcazabedabra wrote:
    It's the old problem of what happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object. Parson is an unstoppable commander, and Gobwin Knob is an unassailable defensive position. How would you write it?

    While GK is apparently the hardiest defensive position on the map, that doesn't make it unassailable. Without Parson, Gobwin Knob would have fallen with almost no trouble. That's not to say that seeing Parson on the other side of a Gobwin Knob invasion wouldn't be interesting, it would just take more than a hardened position to make it an even fight.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:28 pm 
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    SteveMB wrote:
    That would explain why Stanley was so confident of her loyalty that he didn't see any need for a loyalty spell -- relying on something like that would almost seem like an expression of distrust in his Titanic mandate.


    I'd figured that Jillian's jarring link-breaking burned it out of her, and Stanley just hasn't noticed. Way in the beginning she said "no" to a direct order, and he was surprised, and she explained it was because the order would kill him. Don't think that interaction would've been necessary if they both knew she wasn't under a loyalty spell.

    But if I'm right, I'd expected some sort of showdown when he got back. But maybe she's just biding her time.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:29 pm 
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    Quote:
    His head was making that buzzing noise he hated. Still, he needed to be in control. Get control now.


    Definitely sounds like something is messing with Stanley's head. "Still, he needed to be in control. Get control now" seems like a natural response to a voice in your head that says "You need to be in control. Get control now."

    Judging by Wanda's reaction and all the other boop that's happened, I don't think she's the one in control. Same argument against Charlie. Best candidate is some sort of influence from the Arkenhammer*. If so, then will Wanda start hearing the same voices? If the pliers have the same 'personality' as the hammer, Wanda wouldn't be happy. More likely that their personalities would be compatible, though.

    Awesome :)


    *Or Titanic intervention, but that's pretty close to Arkenhammer influence.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:07 pm 
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    spinn wrote:
    SteveMB wrote:
    That would explain why Stanley was so confident of her loyalty that he didn't see any need for a loyalty spell -- relying on something like that would almost seem like an expression of distrust in his Titanic mandate.


    I'd figured that Jillian's jarring link-breaking burned it out of her, and Stanley just hasn't noticed. Way in the beginning she said "no" to a direct order, and he was surprised, and she explained it was because the order would kill him. Don't think that interaction would've been necessary if they both knew she wasn't under a loyalty spell.

    My best guess is that Wanda has been careful to act the part of a unit Loyalty-bound to Stanley, even though she isn't, really. That would include bending or going against his orders only when necessary, and having an acceptable explanation when she does.

    Quote:
    But if I'm right, I'd expected some sort of showdown when he got back. But maybe she's just biding her time.

    Perhaps. Having finally fulfilled the prediction that she would attune to an Arkentool, she may be thinking through the question "OK, now what?"

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:38 pm 
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    I don't think Wanda will turn on Stanley, or him trying to get the pliers off her.

    He obviously doesn't trust her, and she's obviously a double-crossing witch, but the reason they won't fight each other is they have a prophecy they want to fulfill. They don't understand it fully, but they know they have the best defensive position in the world, the best strategist alive, a new army, the means to make more (wanda can follow up the next engagements, decrypting everything), a super-destructive tool that'll allow Stanley to lead the charge if needed, and the means to summon some of the toughest creatures on erfworld (the hammer will keep poping dwagons every few turns... and eventually pidgeons). THey'll know if they get their hands on Charlie's Arkane-dish it'll be game over for the good guys.

    In strategy games like this, when you have this kind of advantage, you generally attack in all directions trying to rebuild your faction. Their enemies are crushed, and Gobwin Knob has a huge a no-upkeep army. If they did not attack and just waited, their enemies would eventually form a new army. I bet they are going to press the advantage, taking cities and forming a regular army to suplement the decrypted one and the dwagons.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:59 pm 
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    spinn wrote:
    Way in the beginning she said "no" to a direct order, and he was surprised, and she explained it was because the order would kill him. Don't think that interaction would've been necessary if they both knew she wasn't under a loyalty spell.

    It doesn't have to be a spell, Loyalty is a definite (and hidden) trait that doesn't allow Loyal troops to disobey a direct order (unless, of course, they also have a high enough Duty to act in their commander's best interest).

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:05 am 
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    Bobby, be careful. Parson wrote those descriptions of natural Thikamancies off the cuff. He left lots out. Loyalty is a rating, but he suggests that what it does are absolutes. That's inconsistent. If Loyalty causes absolute obedience, why is there a rating system? How could Wanda conspire against her Overlord? How could Stanley leave the city to be attacked?

    There is a lot we do not know about NAtural Thinkamancy, but one thing is clear. They are not absolutes that cannot be broken. If they were, no one would have ever heard the word "traitor".

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:35 am 
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    Natural magic is really just a way to explain how the world works. It's science!

    Emotion, society, morality, conscience - these are "Natural Thinkamancy."

    Buying stuff, paying bills? "Natural Moneymancy."

    Erfquake? "Natural Dirtamancy."

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:30 pm 
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    Kreistor, all I'm trying to say is that a unit can have high Loyalty and act as such (not being able to disobey direct orders, etc) without being subject to a Loyalty spell. Instead of assuming that certain evidence means that Wanda is under a loyalty spell or that Stanley assumed she was, the a simpler explanation is that Stanley assumed that Wanda had a high Loyalty and Duty to him and she never contradicted that belief. If I was unclear, I apologize.

    Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:
    Natural magic is really just a way to explain how the world works. It's science!

    Emotion, society, morality, conscience - these are "Natural Thinkamancy."

    Buying stuff, paying bills? "Natural Moneymancy."

    Erfquake? "Natural Dirtamancy."

    Huh. I'd never thought of that in quite those terms. It's essentially people describing the events and world around them through terms and systems they know. Just like how the Ancient Greeks understood the world around them through their gods and the four elements. The people of Erfworld know about stats and magic classes and disciplines, so that's how they explain even the things that don't obviously have those.

    Everything in Erfworld is controlled by stats. X is something in Erfworld. Therefore, X must have a stat.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:35 pm 
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    Heh, don't forget medieval medicine and the four humours - Blood, Phlegm, Black Bile, and Yellow Bile! Mm-m!

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:38 pm 
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    Bobby Archer wrote:
    Everything in Erfworld is controlled by stats. X is something in Erfworld. Therefore, X must have a stat.


    Everything except a certain warlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:55 pm 
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    HandofShadows wrote:
    Bobby Archer wrote:
    Everything in Erfworld is controlled by stats. X is something in Erfworld. Therefore, X must have a stat.


    Everything except a certain warlord.



    Well he has stat bonuses to everyone else... that's some sort of stats :D

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:58 pm 
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    BarGamer wrote:
    GODS, I wish Parson would find his own ArkenTool. As someone with an idiot for a boss, I sympathize with him in the worst way.
    It is still too early in the narrative for Parson to be a free agent, at least at the moment. Despite the end of the first volume, he doesn't have enough motivation or drive -- there's nothing he really wants to accomplish. Just from a writing perspective, there has to be at least one more dramatic moment that can give him a goal first.

    Otherwise... he gets free of Stanley and does what, exactly? He's still basically at loose ends right now, since he half-expected to go home.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:10 pm 
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    Aquillion wrote:
    BarGamer wrote:
    GODS, I wish Parson would find his own ArkenTool. As someone with an idiot for a boss, I sympathize with him in the worst way.
    It is still too early in the narrative for Parson to be a free agent, at least at the moment. Despite the end of the first volume, he doesn't have enough motivation or drive -- there's nothing he really wants to accomplish. Just from a writing perspective, there has to be at least one more dramatic moment that can give him a goal first.

    Otherwise... he gets free of Stanley and does what, exactly? He's still basically at loose ends right now, since he half-expected to go home.


    I know, that's what Wanda's for: Giving Parson the motivation, drive, and "dramatic moments" he needs. ;)

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 004
     Post Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:45 pm 
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    BarGamer wrote:
    GODS, I wish Parson would find his own ArkenTool. As someone with an idiot for a boss, I sympathize with him in the worst way.


    Personally, I'm in no hurry. One of the things I liked about the end of Book 1 was the contrast between Wanda and Parson. Wanda was willing to sacrifice everyone around her in order to blindly fullfil her prophecy and get an ArkenTool, whereas Parson refused to be controlled by fate no matter what perks it gave him. Giving Parson an ArkenTool of his own would muddle that contrast.

    -H

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