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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:45 am 
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chanman wrote:

If Charlie is aware of GK's treasury boon, he has every incentive to hide this from the RCC and negotiate a way for himself to take custody of the shinies - preferably without anyone knowing why exactly he wants the land GK sits on.


The RCC and Charlie are in no position to be deciding what to do with GK's capital; they're barely defending themselves as it is.

Also, Charlie doesn't have cities; it would be perhaps out of character to demand to take one, anyway.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:56 am 
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    I will first point out that uncroaked are widely known to have no upkeep. Now despite the differences between decrypted and uncroaked, a lot of people out there have to think there is a reasonable expectation that decrypted do not cost upkeep.

    This means that the no upkeep in of itself is not totally inbalancing. What really make it unbalanced is decryption can be done indefinitely as long as there is a pile of bodies and Wanda in the hex, and the units unlike uncroaked are just as good as living units.

    Of course, that is just the tip of the iceberg for Gobwin Knob.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:15 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    I will first point out that uncroaked are widely known to have no upkeep. Now despite the differences between decrypted and uncroaked, a lot of people out there have to think there is a reasonable expectation that decrypted do not cost upkeep.

    Ah, yes, that would work...I don't know that we've ever been shown the upkeep of a simple uncroaked, though. Well, I don't recall at least. Parson was surprised that Decrypted Ansom's upkeep was zero, though at that point, he probably didn't know enough of Erfworld to be able to form reasonable expectations...but it's a good point, perhaps GK's expenditures aren't so difficult to guess.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:34 am 
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    Terah wrote:

    1.5: Harvest the non-yellow dragons as a food source (similar to how Slately harvested his sourmanders), killing them so they can be decrypted on the ground as well.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:26 am 
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    chanman wrote:
    If Charlie is aware of GK's treasury boon, he has every incentive to hide this from the RCC and negotiate a way for himself to take custody of the shinies - preferably without anyone knowing why exactly he wants the land GK sits on.


    that makes sense - we do know that Charlie's basically out to get every shmucker he can get his hands on, whatever the mystery as to why. but it seems to me unusual to be able to get ahold of any from conquest of a side - it strikes me as fairly "standard practice" to try to use up everything you've got when you're facing certain defeat such that the winner doesn't profit from it? I mean, I remember it was one of the factors being used to convince Stanley to pay for the spell to get Parson in the first place ("you can't take it with you").

    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    I will first point out that uncroaked are widely known to have no upkeep. Now despite the differences between decrypted and uncroaked, a lot of people out there have to think there is a reasonable expectation that decrypted do not cost upkeep.

    This means that the no upkeep in of itself is not totally inbalancing. What really make it unbalanced is decryption can be done indefinitely as long as there is a pile of bodies and Wanda in the hex, and the units unlike uncroaked are just as good as living units..


    right, uncroaked units fall apart progressively over time, which gives them a shelf life and so even if they cost no upkeep they're not "indefinitely useable", whereas decrypted units are "full strength", no upkeep and therefore (like viruses?) infinitely replicable until the source of contagion is eliminated or the entire ecosystem collapses

    Question - is there any significance to Tramennis addressing Charlie as "overlord"?

    Is that what you normally term the ruler of a non-royal side?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:38 am 
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    build6 wrote:
    Question - is there any significance to Tramennis addressing Charlie as "overlord"?

    Is that what you normally term the ruler of a non-royal side?


    According to the wiki, an Overlord is a Ruler that is not a Royal, so it was a case of Tramennis using Charlie's official title.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:44 am 
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    museunchained wrote:
    build6 wrote:
    Question - is there any significance to Tramennis addressing Charlie as "overlord"?

    Is that what you normally term the ruler of a non-royal side?


    According to the wiki, an Overlord is a Ruler that is not a Royal, so it was a case of Tramennis using Charlie's official title.
    And that part of the wiki is not speculation, it is Word of Balder.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:29 pm 
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    Nihila wrote:
    museunchained wrote:
    build6 wrote:
    Question - is there any significance to Tramennis addressing Charlie as "overlord"?

    Is that what you normally term the ruler of a non-royal side?


    According to the wiki, an Overlord is a Ruler that is not a Royal, so it was a case of Tramennis using Charlie's official title.
    And that part of the wiki is not speculation, it is Word of Balder.


    Not just wiki, the term was explained in Book 1 too.

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    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:55 pm 
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    Emmerson Grant wrote:
    Panel two, at Parson's wrist.

    What is that pink blob?


    Pink blob at Parson's wrist?

    You mean his left hand?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:00 pm 
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    Xorbon wrote:
    You mean his left hand?
    Which is on the table. Parson's bracer is on his left hand. The pink blob is the pizza stain part of Lord Hamster's insignia.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:01 pm 
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    Xorbon wrote:
    Emmerson Grant wrote:
    Panel two, at Parson's wrist.

    What is that pink blob?


    Pink blob at Parson's wrist?

    You mean his left hand?


    It seems it was a mistake, since it's retconned and is no longer there.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:43 pm 
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    I agree that decrypted having zero upkeep is something that other sides might infer.

    I would posit that that fact is one of the things freaking out the other sides (and the MK), in fact.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:40 pm 
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    throwingrocks wrote:
    Raza wrote:
    Lol @ rampant speculation. This page will never be as funny again as it is right now to those who've been keeping up with the reactions forum.

    And Charlie flat-out lies for the first time in conversation. Apparently he's not quite lawful, just polite.


    He didn't lie, per se; he didn't deny that he was helping, that he was doing it at his own expense. He implied that he was offended by the accusations, but did not deny that it was true. It's like answering the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?" with "I love your butt in those pants.".

    He said that his neutrality had never wavered. That part was flat out untrue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:31 pm 
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    Raza wrote:
    throwingrocks wrote:
    Raza wrote:
    Lol @ rampant speculation. This page will never be as funny again as it is right now to those who've been keeping up with the reactions forum.

    And Charlie flat-out lies for the first time in conversation. Apparently he's not quite lawful, just polite.


    He didn't lie, per se; he didn't deny that he was helping, that he was doing it at his own expense. He implied that he was offended by the accusations, but did not deny that it was true. It's like answering the question "Do these pants make my butt look fat?" with "I love your butt in those pants.".

    He said that his neutrality had never wavered. That part was flat out untrue.


    I suppose that could be seen as a flat out lie. I can also see it as fairly easy to weasel out of, depending on how Charlie defines "Neutrality" in this instance.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:04 am 
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    throwingrocks wrote:
    I suppose that could be seen as a flat out lie. I can also see it as fairly easy to weasel out of, depending on how Charlie defines "Neutrality" in this instance.


    It's called a "Diplomatic Lie" and one of convenience Both know that it's a lie but will pay it lip service as the truth even while silently acknowledging that they know it's not. "That's my story and I'm sticking to it. You wouldn't want to call me a liar, would you?"

    Tramennis will no doubt keep the information in mind in the future whn making plans, but he isn't in any position to call Charley on his untruthfulness at the moment.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:29 pm 
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    Quote:
    I suppose that could be seen as a flat out lie. I can also see it as fairly easy to weasel out of, depending on how Charlie defines "Neutrality" in this instance.
    I strongly suspect he is trying to nab Wanda. He just threatened a royal side and made them waste valuable forces in order to help achieve this goal. He was spying on the royals. He is neutral in this conflict; he is stabbing all sides equally.

    Quote:
    It's called a "Diplomatic Lie" and one of convenience Both know that it's a lie but will pay it lip service as the truth even while silently acknowledging that they know it's not. "That's my story and I'm sticking to it. You wouldn't want to call me a liar, would you?"
    I think he wants tram to think this. He can claim neutrality, and he is telling Tram he supports the royals in this conflict while in actuallity he doesn't care. And Tram can't get mad if he abandons them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:56 pm 
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    I love the speculation of a mobile Parson, however I must point out and wonder, what city is that he's placed himself outside of? Perhaps it is Jetstone and he's outside simply because he can't get there, but he's displayed because of his bonuses and his recently re-appointed position.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:29 pm 
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    Ayyar wrote:
    I love the speculation of a mobile Parson, however I must point out and wonder, what city is that he's placed himself outside of? Perhaps it is Jetstone and he's outside simply because he can't get there, but he's displayed because of his bonuses and his recently re-appointed position.
    It's a pretty good representation of Spacerock, the Jetstone capitol. It has the Courtyard (the gray box), the Tower (the other gray box), and the Walls. Also, the dwagon group (in red) is a bit of a tip off.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 40
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:06 am 
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    Well, why would he have another city's model on war table when they were in such a bad situation anyway? And I think it is surely Spacerock, because Stanley was simulating the entire battle. (Remember when he got a new piece out of the box when Ossomer got decrypted?)

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Charlie's motivations
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:06 pm 
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    I'm not sure if anyone has floated this idea before, but I'm sure someone will say if they have. :lol:

    I'm wondering if Charlie is more or less motivated in the way he represents himself. Charlie is content with a single city, isn't interested in trying to conquer anything in his own right, certainly doesn't want to take over the world. He just wants the 'game' to keep going on forever and so is constantly involved in stirring up further conflict by helping whoever will pay him and then switching to the other side when they pay him for a contract that trumps the original contract. Charlie enjoys the game for its own sake, and amassing the money and favours that extend his ability to be involved. He's a bit like Data's 'winning' strategy in "Peak Performance" - never tries to win, so never risks being destroyed, but, unlike FAQ pre-Queen Jillian, is actively involved in broader conflicts, and so therefore is part of the problem.

    And, if the Hippiemancer in the Magic Kingdom was more-or-less on the money, that, ironically, makes Charlie the Big Bad Guy in the overarching plot. If Hamster's true goal (narratively or given to him by erfworld) is to bring an end to the internicine warfare by defeating everyone, then Charlie is the one force that is truly his opposite - promoting warfare not for himself (in the sense that he has no interest in expanding his territory), but simply for its own sake.

    No-one, including the reader, believes that it could be that simple because, as Charlie says, no-one believes what he gives away for free. And the reader (and Hamster) got this info fairly 'cheaply'.

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