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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:13 am 
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Magothys wrote:

Stanley might appoint an heir designate first (possibly Parson). And Wanda refers to the fate of the "arkentools", not the Tools, so maybe Charlie kills Stanley and takes the hammer or changes his plans and captures him.


Without some very significant character development (read: a complete character overhaul), I just can't imagine Stanley appointing a heir designate. It would be so out of character for him, I think.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:50 am 
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    Crisis21 wrote:
    Its too bad for Ace that he doesn't work for Gobwin Knob. He would get along fabulously with Parson and Sizemore.

    I'm betting both Cubbins and Ace would find themselves an appreciative home at GK.

    It does kinda seem like Ace has a lightsabre on the table...
    TheMutant wrote:
    Also, it's interesting that Cubbins seems uncertain- doesn't, as Maggie and Sizemore demonstrated in the summer updates, Duty compel units to take actions beneficial to their side, even if not specifically ordered?
    Sure, but that extends to "don't spend all your juice for the turn when you're pretty damn certain to be asked to participate in the attack on the flying forces in your airspace." Standing ready and not exhausting your capabilities is a part of Duty.
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Sizemore is ... somewhere, which makes him the safest of the three.
    I disagree. Sizemore being ... somewhere ... is what makes him vulnerable. He can be shown to tunnel up under Wanda's forces and get gunned down by Ace Hardware's new anti-caster arrow, and the majority of fandom who support the Kingworld spell (The costuming and names led up to this, it was so natural!) wouldn't even blink.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:18 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Sizemore is ... somewhere, which makes him the safest of the three.
    I disagree. Sizemore being ... somewhere ... is what makes him vulnerable. He can be shown to tunnel up under Wanda's forces and get gunned down by Ace Hardware's new anti-caster arrow, and the majority of fandom who support the Kingworld spell (The costuming and names led up to this, it was so natural!) wouldn't even blink.

    We wouldn't blink if Sizemore's death were somehow, gloriously, tied into the Rocky Horror theme.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:17 am 
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    Magothys wrote:
    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    DevilDan wrote:
    Poor. poor Stanley. No one, virtually, is giving odds on his survival.

    Half of me believes that no toolbearer will die till the very end.


    I think he is up in the immortality list, right under Parson. If he croaks, the war of the tools is over and GK disbands. And this war is the narrative of erfworld. The spell that Parson binds will dissolve, robbing him of the excuse to play war. Wanda will be proven false in her believe that the tools will be united, and lose her drive. And since she is a GK unit, she will disband if she's in the field, freeze in time in a barbarian city, or be cut off from her decrypted in the Magic Kingdom. And that be the end of the story.


    Stanley might appoint an heir designate first (possibly Parson). And Wanda refers to the fate of the "arkentools", not the Tools, so maybe Charlie kills Stanley and takes the hammer or changes his plans and captures him.


    I think Stanley is pretty safe at this point. He does a good job both providing comic relief to the strip and a convenient source of obstacles for other characters to overcome. Which means he is a great character to keep around.

    He is also clearly a villain so his death would not provide any real drama. Villains die in stories to show that the hero or hero's trials paid off and provide catharsis for readers. But Erfworld is typically subverts tropes like that, and only rarely plays them straight. Maybe if I liked Jillian it would be a nice end for her arc to kill the man who destroyed FAQ, though we already know Stanley is less responsible than Wanda for that outcome. So really, Jillian killing Stanley would just further cement her reputation as the stab first, don't think about it, emotions cannot possible be wrong type.

    Now, putting Parson into a position where he has an opportunity to kill Stanley would be interesting. And I do not mean have him killed or otherwise setting up his death. I mean Parson swings a blade at his neck or go home.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:31 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    Now, putting Parson into a position where he has an opportunity to kill Stanley would be interesting. And I do not mean have him killed or otherwise setting up his death. I mean Parson swings a blade at his neck or go home.
    I don't know, if going home is literal, then Parson would take that chance, that was his goal throughout Book 1. Maybe "Parson swings a blade at Stanley's neck and then goes home" would provide the dilemma required.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:32 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    Oh, its more than just you. Everyone seems to think Wanda is a central character and cannot be replaced.


    You misunderstand me. I claim non-contrarianness at placing Wanda at merely number 5, instead of at the obvious number 2 position. (Because Charlie really is immortal until the fat lady sings. Hey wait, maybe that's what Janis is supposed to do).

    I agree with what you say about her being (almost) a spent force, narratively speaking. There's two things she has going for her yet- a), Jillian. Finding out what happened at Faq will lead to a massive drama explosion for Jillian. And b), the Pliers. There's something behind this Tools Together thing, there's an endgame or such coming, and while I don't expect Wanda to survive that scenario, she'll be around when it starts.

    Oberon wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Sizemore is ... somewhere, which makes him the safest of the three.
    I disagree. Sizemore being ... somewhere ... is what makes him vulnerable. He can be shown to tunnel up under Wanda's forces and get gunned down by Ace Hardware's new anti-caster arrow, and the majority of fandom who support the Kingworld spell (The costuming and names led up to this, it was so natural!) wouldn't even blink.


    Now now, as our sparring partners would frequently say to us, "have faith in the writer".

    Setting aside that thing that I view as a momentary lapse (and if you try to ignore what you deem a chronic problem with the story dynamics), we can be reasonably sure that Sizemore won't just be wasted off-screen, for that would be a waste.

    Being killed on-screen after just popping back into the story would also be surprising. Possible to pull off elegantly, but still a bit "wha-?". It's more likely that Sizemore will be given some time to reattach himself to the events.

    Then get promptly killed off because Erfworld hates nice people.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:26 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Magothys wrote:

    Stanley might appoint an heir designate first (possibly Parson). And Wanda refers to the fate of the "arkentools", not the Tools, so maybe Charlie kills Stanley and takes the hammer or changes his plans and captures him.


    Without some very significant character development (read: a complete character overhaul), I just can't imagine Stanley appointing a heir designate. It would be so out of character for him, I think.


    He wouldn't do it on his own, but Maggie might make another suggestion.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:50 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Half of me believes that no toolbearer will die till the very end.



    This, but also in the end at least two tool bearers will get croaked. Wanda (for pathos) and Charlie are my guesses. Stanley will never appoint an heir, and for Parson to survive and leave Erfworld Stanley will need to be alive and functioning until the end. So Stanley has 100% plot armor as well. Good thing he was banished to the larder.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:52 pm 
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    "you misunderstand me. I claim non-contrarianness at placing Wanda at merely number 5, instead of at the obvious number 2 position."

    Jack and Jill also have Wanda's more detailed eyes.

    If Jack can die, then imo so can Wanda, especially since Parson seems to think his side is finished if Wanda dies... it was game when Stanley ran away from GK rather than counter attacked Ansom, it was game over when Ansom got dance bonus to his side, etc.

    Only prophesy we know is fullfilled, Wanda got pliers. Rest of her fate belief could be similar to Ansoms belief in Titans backing in book 1.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:36 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    effataigus wrote:
    Question... are we counting dying and subsequently being decrypted against them for the purposes of "immortality?"


    Decryption is arguably death. Now I'm not a believer in that stance, but it's quite widespread and reasonable. So if someone gets croaked and decrypted, by my count they're dead. And in need of tabulating a new spot on the Watch.

    The system has a few kinks.

    DevilDan wrote:
    Bland, are your estimates adjusted based on your estimation of how much more use the writer may want to get out of a character? And what's the horizon on the killings, the end of this book?


    To answer, use from a character- yes (mostly) and horizon of death- good question. To be honest, my horizon was until curtains are called on Erfworld for good.

    Which is a bit paradoxical because I fully expect Charlie to croak as one of the last things to happen. But OTOH I'm more confident about Charlie reaching that point than I am about any other character.

    If an "until this is over" horizon is too long, then let's make it middle of book 3.


    Ah, can't we make it until the return of the Great Prophet Zarquon?

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:32 pm 
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    I just had a crazy thought... what if Wanda *dies* and Jack decrypts (or someone else) attunes, decrypts her and keeps the pliers for himself.

    Would make or a funny twist, the puppet master becomes a puppet of the one she wanted to decrypt.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:06 pm 
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    Magothys wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    Magothys wrote:

    Stanley might appoint an heir designate first (possibly Parson). And Wanda refers to the fate of the "arkentools", not the Tools, so maybe Charlie kills Stanley and takes the hammer or changes his plans and captures him.


    Without some very significant character development (read: a complete character overhaul), I just can't imagine Stanley appointing a heir designate. It would be so out of character for him, I think.


    He wouldn't do it on his own, but Maggie might make another suggestion.



    I don't think that would work. Suggesting to Stanley to promote Parson and leave the room, Maggie admitted carried quite some personal risk for her. Stanley justified this to himself in in that he had spent a lot of shmuckers on summoning Parson, that Parson is supposed to be the perfect warlord and he (Stanley) could suddenly do with a sandwich anyway. Stanley had to make those justifications in order for the suggestion to work and in order for Maggie to not get one boopload of feedback. For me, it's a stretch between name Parson chief warlord and name Parson heir-designate.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:23 pm 
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    I like Ace. Not so much his macho-ness, but definitely his creative drive, and I can really envision him pacing around with exaggerated movements like a digitally animated action figure. I hope he sticks around, one way or another. If I were an erfworldian I'd totally be a dollamancer - the sum of their creative field describes what I do irl much better than any real life professional term I know of. Also, it looks to me like Ossomer's armored jumpsuit is his creation, and it's always nice to see oddities like that fall into place.

    Cubbins' hesitation seems reasonable; he doesn't know how Ace's current idea will really help and how much of it is self-indulgence, so duty would only halfheartedly kick in here. Still, if the battle's considered won and he can make someone happy, why not?

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:19 pm 
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    Raza wrote:
    Also, it looks to me like Ossomer's armored jumpsuit is his creation, and it's always nice to see oddities like that fall into place.
    Tramennis' pretty skirt might also be his creation - he's been doing all the raiments since Holly left.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:29 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Magothys wrote:

    Stanley might appoint an heir designate first (possibly Parson). And Wanda refers to the fate of the "arkentools", not the Tools, so maybe Charlie kills Stanley and takes the hammer or changes his plans and captures him.


    Without some very significant character development (read: a complete character overhaul), I just can't imagine Stanley appointing a heir designate. It would be so out of character for him, I think.

    Based on Stanley's reaction to Jack saving him, etc I could see it in unusually situation.

    Eg if Stanley is given a reason to be *really* grateful to Parson (he *sees* Parson risk his life to save Stanley rather than accept easy turn/betray offer), or Stanley is about to be croaked on his turn (eg betrayal) and his last shot at revenge is to promote Parson as heir.

    There is a bit of Stately in him... a "small" man who may even realise at some level he is small, but wishes to be something more noble. Stately was considering the sacrifice of Queen of Bea when all looked hopeless.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:14 pm 
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    I think it would be possible for Stanley to name Parson (or possibly someone else, like Vurp) as heir, if he saw it as Titanic mandate that his side must continue without him. But that's still a pretty remote possibility, imo.

    More likely:

    1. Stanley is about to be defeated, Parson runs into the Magic Kingdom.

    2. Stanley is about to be defeated, Wanda breaks allegiance (she's the last of, and therefore the chief of, her own tribe) and then just re-takes GK when it goes barbarian, including Parson (the decrypted will of course break allegiance with her).

    3. Someone else captures Parson after GK goes barbarian. Maybe Jillian....

    Waaaayyy down the list far below #3 here is Stanley promoting anyone at all to heir, I figure.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:08 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Without some very significant character development (read: a complete character overhaul), I just can't imagine Stanley appointing a heir designate. It would be so out of character for him, I think.


    I agree with this. Recall his glib words when he abandoned GK with intent to create a new side at Faq: "This post is no longer needed". He clearly feels the Titanic mandate belongs to him, not his side.

    Now if he were incapacitated or disarmed and someone loyal to him picked up the Arkenhammer and attuned to it, and then he was healed... that might change his attitude very quickly. In fact, I bet he would want to appoint that person heir so that he himself would feel more free to risk his life in battle.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:28 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Crisis21 wrote:
    Its too bad for Ace that he doesn't work for Gobwin Knob. He would get along fabulously with Parson and Sizemore.

    I'm betting both Cubbins and Ace would find themselves an appreciative home at GK.

    It does kinda seem like Ace has a lightsabre on the table...


    Oh, absolutely. I totally picture Parson ordering up a bunch of diecast metal golems that transform into siege engines. With laser cannons. Talk about "breaking the world."

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:33 pm 
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    Could be that Stanley croaks and Parson inherits the side by default, by virtue of being un-disbandable. He theorizes on this in book one, and it's a working explanation of why he could use the magic kingdom portal.

    Now that I think about it though, I think he'd just go barbarian. Not that it'd matter if he was the only one left and standing in a capital site.

    splintermute wrote:
    Raza wrote:
    Also, it looks to me like Ossomer's armored jumpsuit is his creation, and it's always nice to see oddities like that fall into place.
    Tramennis' pretty skirt might also be his creation - he's been doing all the raiments since Holly left.

    Probably, but what I meant was that Ossomer's outfit looked like Ace's. He might've been (one of) the only one(s) to allow him creative freedom. Who made what for everybody else will probably remain forever unspecified.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:45 pm 
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    Dante wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Crisis21 wrote:
    Its too bad for Ace that he doesn't work for Gobwin Knob. He would get along fabulously with Parson and Sizemore.

    I'm betting both Cubbins and Ace would find themselves an appreciative home at GK.

    It does kinda seem like Ace has a lightsabre on the table...


    Oh, absolutely. I totally picture Parson ordering up a bunch of diecast metal golems that transform into siege engines. With laser cannons. Talk about "breaking the world."

    It's only "breaking the world" if 5 or 6 of them can combine into a giant mecha-battle-golem with laser vision. Especially if giant mecha-battle-golems can combine into something even bigger.

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