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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:54 pm 
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ftl wrote:
gazes_also, at the end of the day you're arguing against results. {...} But at the end of the day, what he did at TBfGK worked and saved his side. Do you at least see why your argument isn't at all convincing?


You CAN argue with results. You can't argue with necessity.

My take on this discussion is that some of the tactics used by Parson were underhanded. Of course, they worked. Were they absolutely necessary, was there no other course of action? Maybe, I can't tell.

But that's not what the discussion is. So is Parson a good negociator? He's not bad when he needs to negociate (the fake surrender thing I'd not count as a negociation).


(rant)
More generally, does negociation need trust? YES. Emphatically, yes, canines of the female persuasion. Even in "real-politik" and so on, unless there is some measure of trust* among the parties involved, negociation is futile**. Issues are further complicated in that you, country A, never negociate as such with country B. It falls down to can Reagan trust Gorbachev('s staff) and vice-versa etc***.

*: in real-life, "trust" is a broad notion. Can we trust "them" to hold up their end of the bargain? Well, anything from accepting their word at face value, to being able to reliably check, provides an answer.

**: which is not to say that it isn't done, but in that case I'd wager it's about posturing not negociation. As in, show to whoever matters that the talking road was attempted first.

***: repeat negociation of course requires trust. One of the reasons even foreigners like stability in country X. Means they'll talk with the same faces, which they've grown, maybe, to trust.
(/rant)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:51 pm 
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    I have little doubt that Parson can be a skilled negotiator. He knows the value of things, and is willing to give up things of value to hopefully come out ahead.

    However, what I seriously doubt is his ability to be an effective diplomat. What's the difference? A diplomat is about establishing a long term working relationship between two sides. It also involves a large degree of stretching the truth, outright lying, and brown nosing. That last one would get Parson in a lot of trouble.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:28 pm 
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    Does anyone outside of GK and Charlie know that Parson faked the surrender? I haven't seen evidence that even Vinnie or Jillian even remembers Parson's existence. I mean, if the RCC doesn't know that he broke the rules of parley, they'll take his arguments at face value.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:52 pm 
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    Nihila wrote:
    Does anyone outside of GK and Charlie know that Parson faked the surrender? I haven't seen evidence that even Vinnie or Jillian even remembers Parson's existence. I mean, if the RCC doesn't know that he broke the rules of parley, they'll take his arguments at face value.

    Charlie and the MK casters are probably the only non-GK individuals Parson has had contact with since tBfGK, and they probably won't tell anyone - Charlie because the info is too valuable, the casters because they don't want to publicize their massive security breach. From Jillian and Vinnie's perspective, Parson was destroyed in the volcano. Of course if he begins negotiating with RCC II, Jillian and/or Vinnie would be able to identify him as the eldritch abomination Wanda summoned - except that both Jillian and Vinnie are (hopefully) conveniently out of the way for the rest of this battle. Until they can warn the other coalition members, RCC II should probably just think of Parson as a new random GK chief warlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:26 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    Nihila wrote:
    Does anyone outside of GK and Charlie know that Parson faked the surrender? I haven't seen evidence that even Vinnie or Jillian even remembers Parson's existence. I mean, if the RCC doesn't know that he broke the rules of parley, they'll take his arguments at face value.

    Charlie and the MK casters are probably the only non-GK individuals Parson has had contact with since tBfGK, and they probably won't tell anyone - Charlie because the info is too valuable, the casters because they don't want to publicize their massive security breach. From Jillian and Vinnie's perspective, Parson was destroyed in the volcano. Of course if he begins negotiating with RCC II, Jillian and/or Vinnie would be able to identify him as the eldritch abomination Wanda summoned - except that both Jillian and Vinnie are (hopefully) conveniently out of the way for the rest of this battle. Until they can warn the other coalition members, RCC II should probably just think of Parson as a new random GK chief warlord.


    But would Jillian and Vinny recognise him as an abomination? Yeah they saw him at TBFGK but they were kind of distracted by Ansoms outburst at the time. I'm not even sure they would put the tactics used and him together.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:54 pm 
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    Nihila wrote:
    Does anyone outside of GK and Charlie know that Parson faked the surrender? I haven't seen evidence that even Vinnie or Jillian even remembers Parson's existence. I mean, if the RCC doesn't know that he broke the rules of parley, they'll take his arguments at face value.


    I'm sure they'll remember him when he starts kicking their (allies') asses up and down Erfworld.

    I'm not sure if Jillian ever actually saw Hamster, though. Vinnie and Ansom did, though, at least, but that was through a Thinkagram, which may appear distorted or something, hiding Parson's true majesty to their feeble eyes.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:56 pm 
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    ftl wrote:

    gazes_also, at the end of the day you're arguing against results... what he did at TBfGK worked and saved his side. Do you at least see why your argument isn't at all convincing?


    But what he did to achieve those results cannot be classified as negotiation anymore than Don Corleone's "offer you can't refuse" can be classified as a negotiation.
    Your view of negotiation is "anything I can do to get my way". In real life there are times you knowingly accept less than you can get because the longterm and intangible benefits are important. All good negotiators know that.

    A final thought - Parson is the perfect Warlord, but Don King decided that a warlord as heir was a bad idea, he needed a royal heir, because a ruler's job is diplomacy and negotiation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:20 pm 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    But what he did to achieve those results cannot be classified as negotiation anymore than Don Corleone's "offer you can't refuse" can be classified as a negotiation.
    Your view of negotiation is "anything I can do to get my way". In real life there are times you knowingly accept less than you can get because the longterm and intangible benefits are important. All good negotiators know that.

    That assumes that you care about the longterm.

    When there's a giant of mob of dudes out there that want to put your head into a pike, a good negotiatior must screw longterm plans and squeeze everything he can get in order to stay afloat. Short profits is much better than beind too dead to reap longterm plans.

    So yes, misinformation, provocation, lies, deceit are all valid "extreme" negotiation options when you really don't have other choice.

    This is, you really expected the royals would acept a call for a "mutual longbenefit plan"? When they had crushing military advantage and considered Stanley a inferior peasant? No good sir. But provoking them into overextending their forces, faking surrenders, that gives you a chance to negotiate and fight another day.

    gazes_also wrote:
    A final thought - Parson is the perfect Warlord, but Don King decided that a warlord as heir was a bad idea, he needed a royal heir, because a ruler's job is diplomacy and negotiation.

    And then he ended up hiring a "queen" whose speciality is hacking and crushing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:41 pm 
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    You know Parson could do the most insane thing possible to pull off the victory. Hire Charlie....
    Since Charles now knows that Wanda may be inclined to join his side if the proper offer is made it may be in his best interests to rescue Wanda for Parsons...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 32
     Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:14 pm 
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    Decorus wrote:
    You know Parson could do the most insane thing possible to pull off the victory. Hire Charlie....
    Since Charles now knows that Wanda may be inclined to join his side if the proper offer is made it may be in his best interests to rescue Wanda for Parsons...


    This would be a neat idea, but for the fact that Charlie's turn has already come and gone today. And it's now the RCC2's turn.

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