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 Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Wow, I haven't been on these fora in a while, it's exciting to see my map prompting such debate. A few notes:

1: I have never seen it indicated definitively if cities occupy more than one hex; however, I do know lava is a terrain-type (something that occupies an entire hex) and Gobwin Knob is stated to curve around a pool of lava, so geometrically that seems to imply at the very least it occupying two hexes adjacent to a lava hex and each other. Roads, as well, appear to be a terrain type, as shown by the dwagon-circle incident; thus representing the road making it's switchback path up the mountain required use of multiple hexes, thus making the city a single hex would make it seem less than to scale. Also, if you'll notice, the number of hexes a city occupies corresponds to its level: speculation on my part, but a useful shorthand until such is confirmed or denied.

2a: There have been some other developments since the last time I modified this; On the Unaroyal front, there are other cities between Warchalking and the capitol, but the comic hasn't really gone into them: if memory serves, most of the cities mentioned were mentioned in the context of being away from the war front: i.e., the piker in the text update who was transferred from one backwater to another without seeing any action, only to be captured at Warchalking. The capitol, based on that, is somewhere in the middle, with other cities all around, some on the other side of the capitol from Gobwin Knob.
2b: I'm open to suggestions on how to play out the geography around Jetstone. We know this much: there are hilly plains surrounding the area, and a river running through it, and a bridge over the river a few hexes away is the only way a force from the Unaroyal/Gobwin Knob direction can strategically advance. I was thinking of putting said bridge somewhere near Penistone (pronounced Penn-Ness-Tunn, if I'm not mistaken). Thoughts?

3: I have added a number of details that are wholly my invention, notably the body of water near Oshkosh (based on the lake adjacent to the real-life city of Oshkosh, WI.) and the shape of the river, especially near Penistone.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:12 pm 
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    Gobwin Knob almost certainly occupies more than one hex. The eruption didn't seem to devastate the surrounding terrain as far as we can tell, there's no huge lava plain around GK.

    Ceasar's intel said a dirtmancy trap across multiple hexes. That, combined with the fact that the lava lake probably gets it's own hex and the city curves around it... yeah, I think we're pretty safe saying it's a multiple-hex affair.

    Probably the actual garrison/dungeon of the fortress is the inner hex, and the city & lava lake are in some or all of the surrounding hexes. Might not be the full 7 hexes out from the central hex.

    It makes sense for scale reasons too. Top quality flying mounts have in excess of 50 move. If a level 5 city is only 1 hex, then either the cities are tiny, or those mounts are like rockets. Since we've seen the cities being quite large when scaled to the erfworlders, it makes sense that you might have a multi-hex city.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:58 pm 
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    Really? I would have definitely thought that GK is a single hex, and so would any other city.

    After all - to try to cross a hex boundary, Parson had to try to leave the city. He never encountered a hex boundary otherwise. In summer update (2? 3?) lava lake was referred to as a "city zone" and not a separate hex, just like the tunnels are a city zone and not a separate hex.

    I would think that agree that the cities are pretty small. Consider that a top flying mount can move 50+ hexes - in the real world, the internet tells me that horses would be able to travel between 30 and 60 miles in a day, so assuming that a top flying mount is similar, that would make a single hex be about a mile or so across, in real world terms. Possibly more, because stereotypically, fantasy flying creatures can travel further than horses. That seems enough to me to house what we've seen in cities - especially given that all the various buildings are empty, there aren't any civilians, and there's multi-story construction.

    We know that the eruption had to have affected hexes OUTSIDE the city as well - regardless of whether we can see the devastation now, we know that Jetstone still had units outside the city at the time of the eruption, since they didn't wait for the rest of their seige to get there (and since ALL nearby Coalition forces were destroyed.)

    So no, I'd think that we've got no reason to believe that cities span multiple hexes - and some reason to believe they span only a single hex, since Parson never encountered a hex boundary before trying to leave the city.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:55 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Really? I would have definitely thought that GK is a single hex, and so would any other city.

    After all - to try to cross a hex boundary, Parson had to try to leave the city. He never encountered a hex boundary otherwise.


    I personally agree, but your logic is flawed. Garrison troops can across city zones (hexes?) without expending move.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:30 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    I personally agree, but your logic is flawed. Garrison troops can across city zones (hexes?) without expending move.


    I think city zones are areas within a hex, so you don't have to expend move to move between them. I'm not checking so feel free to call me out on this.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:22 am 
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    It's never been specified.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:34 pm 
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    I'm pretty sure city areas are not Hexes, since they're not in the shape of a regular Hexagon

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    We're the people sitting around discussing our pet theories based on nomenclature, citing references, discussing ad nauseum while Parson finds out how it works.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:06 pm 
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    I can't say I'm certain, but what I believe to be the case is that some zones can be "stacked" on top of one another; thus there can be tunnels/mines/dungeons under an area of city or mountain, just like there's airspace above. Incidentally, that might be a good feature to characterize "Impassable Mountains" (a type of terrain which I cannot recall if it was officially mentioned or just made up): mountains high enough they don't have an airspace zone.

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure lava is a terrain-type: Sizemore specifically mentions altering terrain-type, and as mentioned above, the "dirtamancy trap" occurred over multiple hexes. Roads, furthermore, are also terrain: or at least there is some kind of terrain-type, occuring in long, nearly-single-file formations leading from one city to another, along which Ansom's coalition traveled, presumably for reasons of expediency. Call a rabbit a smeerp. With that in mind, simple scaling would seem to dictate a city being more than a single hex.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:28 pm 
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    Not terribly useful but judging by strip 38 and 97 there are more mountains further east of GK.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038.jpg
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F097.jpg

    And what view is 38b showing us? Due West of GK?

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038b.jpg

    46a showing x-y grid layed over hex?

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F046a.jpg

    Fairly minor, 53 establishes Sizemore's "treatment plant" outside of GK (at the base of the mountain?) which makes sense, cause, you know, stuff rolls downhill. Not sure if this would have changed since the eruption.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F053.jpg


    Last edited by One Skunk Todd on Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:44 pm 
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    Miment wrote:
    BTW, are you sure that the lake from the Siege Raids is only three hexes?


    Not sure this has been answered already (tried to read most posts but the hex vs x-y discussion zoned me out a bit) but the last panel of 66 does seem to narrow it down a bit.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F066.jpg

    Based on the first panel of both 82 and 83 (Which I think both show the same view) the main road from Faq's capital heads either due East or due West.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F082.jpg

    Thinking about it it's probably due West. GK's turn order is usually first so the first panel of 83 would likely show the rising sun.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:13 pm 
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    doran wrote:
    I'm pretty sure city areas are not Hexes, since they're not in the shape of a regular Hexagon



    There is no cannon to suggest that a "hex" is in fact identical to a hexagon. If you lay pennies on a table and push them into the smallest possible space each penny will be in contact with 6 others (you can also use beer cans or marbles). If you spread a handful of pennies, dimes and nickels on the table and push them together most of the coins will be in contact with 6 other coins. However, the mixed coins do not form a regular hexagonal array. Most brick walls are a distorted hexagonal array. Each brick is a rectangle clearly not a hexagon.

    "Hex" comes from the Greek "6". It might come from "hex-map". Jack and the eye-mancers displayed hex-maps made of hexagons. A map containing hexagons would show movement information best even if the internal area varied a lot. A map that showed agricultural data might have true dimensions because the space available for production would be important. Internal area is not important to a warlord planning battles.

    From the summer update on "relativity" we know that the world looks different on each side of a boundary. The interstitial voids do not have to exist even if the shape of each area would create them. If the map was like pennies and you are standing at a triple point it would look like your hex was a smooth curve and the other 2 hexes end in sharp corners, like a T. The triple point would look the same from each hex.

    There is also the German word "hexe" meaning witch. Probably has nothing to do with erf-world. But a hex could be the area that is magically coherent. Hexagrams are 6 pointed stars.

    In many games hexagons and/or rectangular arrays are used because they are more simple. In a game, simplicity is often better. In a comic strip simplicity is often dull. There is no good reason for Rob to make is universe geometrically boring. It looks like Xin prefers curves and slight distortion.

    Why believe hexs are not hexagons? Jillian knew a short cut that Stanley did not. She gained a lot of time. "As the dwagon flies" should be the shortest route from point A to point B on a regular hexagonal array. It could be that dwagons cannot pass things and gwiffon, bats, warlords, orlies all can. It could be a terrain effect. It could be that not all hexes are the same size. It is also possible that there are extra-dimensional short cuts. Air hexes might be different sizes than ground hexes. We do not know.

    I think it is most likely is that erfworld hexes are similar to froth. That allows Xin and Rob to drink beer or champaign and claim they are working. They have to sample a variety in order to clarify all possibilities. Guinness foams differently than Sam Adams. Maybe they should study both the lager and ale just to be thorough. Beer from a keg tap does not foam the same as from a bottle. They could also invite some "colleagues" to get a second opinion. Obviously they can deduct all costs from taxes as business expense.


    Last edited by pSycHOtic chICkeN on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:43 pm 
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    In nearly all board games, "hexes" are regular hexagons. Erfworld is a world with game-like physics. Why would it be any different?

    Jillian gained a lot of time not by knowing shortcuts, but by futzing with turn order. It took Stanley two turns flight to get from GK to the choke point. It took Jillian two turns flight to do the same.

    I think it's most likely that hexes are just what they sound like to most gamers - regular hexagons, like Parson had in the game he was running.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:14 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    In nearly all board games, "hexes" are regular hexagons. Erfworld is a world with game-like physics. Why would it be any different?


    Because in a strategy game simplifying the map allows players to focus on strategy. Terrain features are useful in games if and only if that also enhances the strategy and creates tactical options. Simple is often much better in board games. Board games with irregular or varied shapes often have a small number of spaces and restricted movement. For example movement in the game risk is very restricted so the map can be odd. Comic strips are supposed to be interesting, not predictable or dull. In the game risk South America could be drawn as 4 small squares. It is shaped like South America in order to enhance visual appeal. The same reason why a comic strip might opt for irregular shapes.

    ftl wrote:
    I think it's most likely that hexes are just what they sound like to most gamers - regular hexagons, like Parson had in the game he was running.


    Parsons was playing real world games. A lot of historical simulation games use hex maps. The real battle of Gettysburg was not effected by the shape of hexagons at all. Gettysburg simulation games will usually use a hex-map. The hex map is as close to a no space map as you can get while still regulating movement rules. Other table top games, warhammer for example, force players to use rulers or measuring tape. The hex effect is a distortion that annoys many advanced gamers. But almost all of the annoyed history gamers would prefer hexes to rectangles.

    The fact that Parsons was using a hex map would explain why Jack/maggie/misty used a regular hexagonal array to show him the terrain.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:19 pm 
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    If that was the reason, why didn't they use octagons then, or dodecahedrons? Both of those allow more realistic movement. The answer is because hexagons are far more simple. Erfworld is a comic, yes, but it takes place in a game world. And you said yourself, most games use hexagons.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:28 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    If that was the reason, why didn't they use octagons then, or dodecahedrons?


    :ugeek: Because Erfworld is not a comic about Eldritch Abominations.

    Woah, there's so much hidden geek ref in that sentence.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:12 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    If that was the reason, why didn't they use octagons then, or dodecahedrons? Both of those allow more realistic movement. The answer is because hexagons are far more simple. Erfworld is a comic, yes, but it takes place in a game world. And you said yourself, most games use hexagons.


    Hexagons have the advantage of not leaving any missing space between the movement areas.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:05 am 
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    Drascus wrote:
    Hexagons have the advantage of not leaving any missing space between the movement areas.


    *cough* Oh but you can tile a space using dodecahedrons and leave no room between, or a plane with octogons without leaving any bits uncovered. Just not in our space.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:36 am 
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    Has anyone updated the map yet? Is that dark line a road on the map or a line drawn by Duncan?

    I thought the two images of a map changed. But then I noticed that in frame 2 first row the map has a border. The second map does not have a border and shows 3 more hexagons. Seams possible that Xin was looking at something when she drew both pictures but was not looking at her own drawing.


    Last edited by pSycHOtic chICkeN on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:41 am 
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    Drascus wrote:
    Sinrus wrote:
    If that was the reason, why didn't they use octagons then, or dodecahedrons? Both of those allow more realistic movement. The answer is because hexagons are far more simple. Erfworld is a comic, yes, but it takes place in a game world. And you said yourself, most games use hexagons.


    Hexagons have the advantage of not leaving any missing space between the movement areas.


    I have seen a real soccer ball that did not have any holes in it. It had both white hexagons and black pentagons. It was air tight even when kicked.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:31 pm 
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    pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
    Drascus wrote:
    Sinrus wrote:
    If that was the reason, why didn't they use octagons then, or dodecahedrons? Both of those allow more realistic movement. The answer is because hexagons are far more simple. Erfworld is a comic, yes, but it takes place in a game world. And you said yourself, most games use hexagons.


    Hexagons have the advantage of not leaving any missing space between the movement areas.


    I have seen a real soccer ball that did not have any holes in it. It had both white hexagons and black pentagons. It was air tight even when kicked.



    But <blindingly obvious> a ball is a sphere </blindingly obvious>

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