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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:02 pm 
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pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
multilis wrote:
Ansom perhaps best friend of Vinny


They could be much more than just friends.


Sagan (rubbing his temple): "Someone just posted an Ansom-Vinny Slashfic. Hoo-boy"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:43 pm 
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    BCCroaker wrote:
    Well, remember this is “Love is a battlefield”. The entire thing between Wanda and Jillian was BDSM from the start of the story and now Wanda has control of Jillian’s boyfriend who call’s her Mistress (which she doesn’t want Oss to do). Back to the dungeon for some fun?
    As a corroboration google “Oh Wicked Wanda”!

    Actually, I forwarded this to a friend of mine who's both a Dom and SciFi/gamer (as odd a combo as that may first appear . . .), and when he got to the end, his reaction was 'whoa!!' (and that was without reading any of the forums). We've gotten into some serious discussions of the scene and play, and he found it fascinating from a scene players POV as well as a >gamers<. He just grinned at me and said 'Players, eh? Which kind . . ?'

    Wanda is, right now, the ultimate uber bitch-goddess, a Dom's dream come true. She can command her worst enemy or her lover's lover into her vassalage by killing and raising him, creating an utterly devoted slave. Killer, mother, goddess all rolled up into one hot little freudian package. She is Lady Death on a Dwagon, bringer of death and rebirth. She has the wherewithall to bring the world to its knees before her, and let's face it, is a walking and/or flying definition of hubris . . . and pride goth before the fall.

    Ossomer can't call her 'Mistress' because he hasn't earned the right, and as far as Wanda is concerned, he's just another subbie pawn to be sacrificed as needed, preferably this turn. No reason to get personal with the equipment, and speaking out loud to someone with less than a turns life expectancy is . . . understandable. What? It's not like anyone's going to raise him and ask him . . . he's a unit, and units are expendable. Deal with it. On one level, Wanda's become a gamer in her own right, treating pieces as such.

    Wanda's more concerned with her heart's desire, Jillian. I am wondering what each is willing to sacrifice for the love of the other. Wanda may have to sacrifice Stanley to satisfy Jillian, and in return Jillian may sacrifice herself to become Wanda's humblest and most elevated slave. But I think that Wanda knows down deep that the devotion shown her is false, not born of love for her, but the power of the Pliers, and would prefer to have Jillian alive, a true devot as opposed to a decrypted slave.

    But that's THIS book . . . I suspect Parson's book comes next . . .

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:54 pm 
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    pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
    Jillian was not a queen with her own side. Wanda did not have the pliers when she was parlaying with Jillian. Many of Stanley's dragons will be croaked and then decrypted at Jetstone. Wanda's decrypted unaroyal army is still in the field. This would be a much better time for Wanda to dump Stanley.


    Hmm? There appears to be a misunderstanding.

    Back when Book 1 ended (which, again, was the time I'm claiming was best for a hypothetical split), Wanda had just attuned to the pliers, had a huge army of her own, while Stanley barely had eight dwagons, most of them small. IF she could have dumped Stanley, that was the perfect time. She could have then gone looking for Jillian at whatever pace she wanted.

    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    Hmmm. I imagine it would be reasonably accurate, unless there are different expressions/levels of clarity of it. Faq used a predictamancer, after all, as the cornerstone of their defensive policy. She would have had to give the turn and place of units who might discover Faq in order for Jack to be in position to hide the side.


    Good point.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:08 pm 
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    Angband wrote:
    Adama wrote:
    Two is Gobwin Knob. Saline IV was killed, and the city was captured. Stanley went barbarian for a turn before he recaptured the city.


    We don't know that Stanley went Barbarian. It could be that GK's capital moved to another city, or it could be that the Capital is just needed for some administrative activities and a side can continue (in a crippled fashion) if their Capital gets nicked.


    You're right, we don't know it for sure, but it's strongly implied that that happened, since Stanley took the casters with him on his "special mission." Why would he need to do that except to protect them from disbanding, via being in his commanded force, when the side fell? They could otherwise simply have been sent to another city or to the Magic Kingdom to wait until Stanley recaptured the city.

    As for whether the city was classified as "captured," Sizemore said that it had. Furthermore, Sizemore explicitly tied whether it was "the end of our side" to the fall of the capital, not to the death of Saline IV. That again implies that you need to lose both your leader and your capital for a side to fall.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg

    Quote:
    You also forgot about Unaroyal. They didn't lose their capital, they lost their ruler. Once Queen Bea was disbanded, they had no heir, so all field units disbanded and all cities went neutral.


    I didn't forget, it's just not relevant. Unaroyal had no heir anymore, not even a decrypted one. Without the queen, there was no one to take over the mantle.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:22 pm 
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    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    Did Stanley actually go barbarian and was the capital classified as captured? The rebellion was carried out by natural allies, who I thought couldn't claim a city (I might be misremembering though)...
    This is a good question. The city was retaken by Stanley, who had to move to get to it from his "special mission" with most/all of the casters. So it was his turn. And the natural allies would share the same turn as the side they were allied with. So it could have been that Saline IV was killed and Stanley returned within the same turn.

    MonteCristo wrote:
    The only hope wanda has for surviving without a ruler/heir is if the pliers gives her the power to survive but that's a huge unknown
    [and other turning/barbarian related discussions]
    Wanda is actually in a far better position to be a successful barbarian than anyone ever before on Erf. Jillian had to keep a list of who to disband in case her funds ran low. Wanda comes with an army with zero upkeep, and it is self-regenerating off of any fallen enemies. She would be in the same position as Ossomer with regards to Haggar: She could offer the threat of "Either hire me or fight me." It would be far cheaper for the side to hire her, and unlike Jetstone's her threat would not be a bluff.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:31 pm 
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    SteveMB wrote:
    Even with the lack of a specific timescale, there is still an implicit one (Wanda's lifespan -- even assuming that Erflings don't croak of any cause other than combat, that still means that there is at least one possible circumstance where the prediction is falsified with no "just you wait" loophole).
    I believe, but can not find, that Vinny once spoke of "depopping" at old age, the Erf equivalent of dying of old age. It was just a brief reference, certainly not enough to keep people from arguing over (of course), but that was my take on it at least.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:07 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Wanda is actually in a far better position to be a successful barbarian than anyone ever before on Erf.

    Wanda may lack the skills/brains for that sort of work, she is too good right now at getting everyone else in world to gang up on her, and too reckless. Perhaps if she could decrypt a Trem level thinker or take Parson along, and actually respect the adviser enough to let them take the lead in planning...

    Charlie may be in the best position to play barbarian if needed, he only has 1 city paying for 600 archons... so he already basically functions like a barbarian.

    Parson has barbarian potential of a very different sort... if he could get the magic kingdom to accept him he would even have fast travel time to any client with a portal. If not, he could still sell calculation services long distance given a thinkomancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:24 pm 
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    multilis wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Wanda is actually in a far better position to be a successful barbarian than anyone ever before on Erf.

    Wanda may lack the skills/brains for that sort of work, she is too good right now at getting everyone else in world to gang up on her, and too reckless. Perhaps if she could decrypt a Trem level thinker or take Parson along, and actually respect the adviser enough to let them take the lead in planning...

    Charlie may be in the best position to play barbarian if needed, he only has 1 city paying for 600 archons... so he already basically functions like a barbarian.


    Yes, but Wanda has a massive, sustainable army with zero upkeep. And she isn't exactly stupid either, she just loses control when confronted with Jillian. She wouldn't need Trem when she has Ansom. He's less out of the box but he's steady and brilliant. The problem w/ both brothers is that she doesn't respect the advice of the decrypted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:30 pm 
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    Missed Jillian+Jack.... (which may play a big part of next updates, especially if Jill's plan involves turning Jack)
    That makes 4 - Ansom, Wanda, Vinny, and Jack.

    ...

    "She wouldn't need Trem when she has Ansom" - Ansom is overconfident in his own plans, just like Wanda. They are like chess players so focused on checkmating enemy that they don't see the danger to their own king. Which is dangerous when you have chessmasters like Charlie and Don quietly setting up to kill you. (And nearly entire magic kingdom against you)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:17 am 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    The problem w/ both brothers is that she doesn't respect the advice of the decrypted.


    i dont think its that there decrypted that she doesn't respect them, she didn't really respect them when they were alive (especially ossomer)
    personaly i think she just understands how great parson is so she checks with him
    and i think she thinks she so good with Jillian that she should lead the stack and be just fine (also having ansom there probably wouldn't work well in her favor when dealing with Jillian)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:18 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    "She wouldn't need Trem when she has Ansom" - Ansom is overconfident in his own plans, just like Wanda. They are like chess players so focused on checkmating enemy that they don't see the danger to their own king. Which is dangerous when you have chessmasters like Charlie and Don quietly setting up to kill you. (And nearly entire magic kingdom against you)


    "Chess masters" probably aren't going to be the best Erf strategists. Chess is essentially the same game everytime. The two sides have an enormous degree of symmetry. Part of being a master is outright memorizing a script of opening moves, something every grandmaster and chess program do to maximize odds. The end game is then determined by considering future moves and as many possibilities as possible. That actually describes Ansom very well. And there is a reason he was considered one of Erfworld's finest strategic minds, many of these skills translate into good Erfworld strategy. Ansom is a planner, and likes his plan to encompass as many possibilities as possible. And yes, part of that is covering vulnerabilities, like a capital strike.

    However, Erfworld is not chess. The number of variables makes chess look like tic-tac-toe. Battles are not only difficult to predict, but there's always the possibility of a factor coming in out of left field. Why did Ansom loose the Battle for Gobwin Knob? Because he failed to account for Parson, but he had no way TO account for Parson. When Parson hinted at a strong wall defense, Ansom believed it and modified his plans to what his enemy was doing. Had he followed strict convention like Weibnar wanted, he'd have won.

    In contrast, Parson seems to be less about perfect planning, and more about experimental powerplays. Find the exploit, and well, exploit the hell out of it. He doesn't worry about tomorrow, he just embraces the chaos and does whats best for the short term. Since the long term eventually becomes the short term, it works out in the end. Of course, thats based on the one battle we've seen him in. Later, he might adopt a more longterm approach.

    Charlie is different. He's less concerned about coming up with the winning moves and instead s interested in finding the right price. Even when he made his play at GK, he had a price in mind to help him come out ahead.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:59 am 
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    Sorry, did I completely miss Wanda + Ansom? I thought there might have been some things implied, but I don't recall reading anything definite.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:16 am 
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    You all are putting way too much commitment behind the whole BDSM relationship of Wanda and Jillian, but I can go there with you if that is that important. BDSM relationships are all about trust plus and I think the trust was broken when Ansom was. Only if Wanda is reversed and goes sub letting Jillian Dom, would there be a future for them together. That might happen if Jillian lays a beatdown and captures Wanda. I think that has an interesting poetic justice to it. It is also the only way to break a the previous sub/Dom relationship comfortably - by literally breaking the Dom down to a sub.

    Tremannis is going to be Jillians new trusted one, because Jillian needs a trusted one.

    And Parson is great with long term planning. It just has to be prioritized after short term with the understanding that short term considers the long term as a priority. Situational awareness requires circular logic, not in the normal negative sense of the term.

    First you put out the fire or get out of the burning house; depending on whether saving the house and rebuilding, or moving on is the better long term goal factored against the risks. You don't keep working on the renovations long term project. That hopefully demonstrates what I mean about short term having a priority over long term.

    So Parson uses the resources he has to scheme recruiting feral dragons and building up their air force, which is a good long term plan. But it works with the short term use of the archons for scouting and makes Stanley and the Arkenhammer an asset.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:38 am 
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    And keeping the tool happy so he doesn't annoy Parson or interfere with Parson's good ideas.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:19 pm 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    "Chess masters" probably aren't going to be the best Erf strategists. Chess is essentially the same game everytime. The two sides have an enormous degree of symmetry. Part of being a master is outright memorizing a script of opening moves, something every grandmaster and chess program do to maximize odds. The end game is then determined by considering future moves and as many possibilities as possible. That actually describes Ansom very well. And there is a reason he was considered one of Erfworld's finest strategic minds, many of these skills translate into good Erfworld strategy. Ansom is a planner, and likes his plan to encompass as many possibilities as possible. And yes, part of that is covering vulnerabilities, like a capital strike.

    However, Erfworld is not chess. The number of variables makes chess look like tic-tac-toe. Battles are not only difficult to predict, but there's always the possibility of a factor coming in out of left field. Why did Ansom loose the Battle for Gobwin Knob? Because he failed to account for Parson, but he had no way TO account for Parson. When Parson hinted at a strong wall defense, Ansom believed it and modified his plans to what his enemy was doing. Had he followed strict convention like Weibnar wanted, he'd have won.

    "chess master" is not a term meant to be taken so literally
    The term "Chess master" is one that remains relevant to whatever game is being played.
    It refers to someone who knows all the strategies, knows the possibilities, is great at forward planning, And knows how to plan several steps ahead of any opponent; all within that game. So even if you consider Erfworld to be more complicated, the term remains relevant as the "chess master" would in fact be an "erfworld master"...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:23 pm 
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    Adama wrote:
    As for whether the city was classified as "captured," Sizemore said that it had. Furthermore, Sizemore explicitly tied whether it was "the end of our side" to the fall of the capital, not to the death of Saline IV. That again implies that you need to lose both your leader and your capital for a side to fall.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg


    You know, I had missed that passage. Since Slately croaking and the capital falling happened simultaneously. But look at exactly what Sizemore says in that panel:

    "It wasn't the end of our side."

    I interpret that to be more consistent with the idea that they didn't turn into Barbarians, Gobwin Knob just lost its capital and persisted, still as GK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:06 pm 
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    I don't know if anyone has talked about this yet, but I was just wondering about Trem's sticky situation. He's still trapped in the nasty dwagon bubble, but why? Are none of his soldiers equipped to help free him? Is it something that will only go away once it becomes Jetstone's turn?

    Don't really have any answers, except that if Trem could free himself he probably would have by now.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:22 pm 
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    It's my guess that it lasts a turn. Trem could be stuck until tomorrow.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:29 pm 
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    That sounds reasonable. Barring any kind of removal, if they have the tools at hand to accomplish it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 - Page 15
     Post Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:35 am 
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    Angband wrote:
    Adama wrote:
    As for whether the city was classified as "captured," Sizemore said that it had. Furthermore, Sizemore explicitly tied whether it was "the end of our side" to the fall of the capital, not to the death of Saline IV. That again implies that you need to lose both your leader and your capital for a side to fall.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg


    You know, I had missed that passage. Since Slately croaking and the capital falling happened simultaneously. But look at exactly what Sizemore says in that panel:

    "It wasn't the end of our side."

    I interpret that to be more consistent with the idea that they didn't turn into Barbarians, Gobwin Knob just lost its capital and persisted, still as GK.


    This could actually lead back to the idea of what happens when a capitol falls but the side still has other cities...
    It could be that if the capitol falls, but the heir is still around and has other cities that they do not revert to barbarianism...
    Jillian may have lost her capitol and her cities in one fell swoop, and thus how she became a barbarian in one turn

    But then again, it could just be a choice of words... For instance, Jillian reverted to barbarianism, but was that still considered the end of Faq?... How does one interpret "the end of a side"...
    In this sense, Stanely and Sizemore could have indeed turned to barbarians, but since they still lived and stanely could continue the side once he took back the city, Sizemore felt that the side never truly ended. it becomes a matter of personal interpretation. Some say that when a capitol falls the side ends and that any side that comes from that fallen capitol should be treated as a "new side" where as Sizemore thinks it's more the case that as long as the rulership lives, the side still lives, no matter what form it takes... So while Ansom saw Stanely taking Faq's capitol as Stanley starting a new side, Sizemore would see it as GK's side continuing... one ties the side to it's capitol, where as Sizemore ties it to the rulership

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