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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
 Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:11 pm 
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Annnd... Deissac is now going to absorb everyone.

Seriously though, why Ivan and not, say, an above-ground Dirtamancer? The Wonky Wrench is cool and all, but freeing the prisoners is of a more immediate goal. Charlie's tower can wait.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:22 pm 
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    polluxlogos wrote:
    Annnd... Deissac is now going to absorb everyone.

    Seriously though, why Ivan and not, say, an above-ground Dirtamancer? The Wonky Wrench is cool and all, but freeing the prisoners is of a more immediate goal. Charlie's tower can wait.


    Because Ivan knows about Charlie.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:23 pm 
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    I’ve read several posts where people mention that Isaac is too powerful or “broken”.

    I once saw an off Broadway production of Beowulf. It was in a small theater, about 50 seats and had a very small stage. At one point in the story, Beowulf has to fight a dragon. The dragon was a person holding a large pair of jaws and another person holding a pair of red flood lights for the eyes. If you were willing to suspend belief and imagine that there was a dragon, it could work. During the fight a lady in front of me starts to laugh uncontrollably. At this point the show for her was “broken” and she could no longer suspend her belief about the dragon.

    Now, I don’t think that there is anything funny about this page, but after reading it, I kind of feel like she might have felt. I can only suspend my belief for so much. For example, take what we know that Isaac can do. He can croak units from a distance, he can see what other units are seeing, he can control other casters from at least a short distance away, and he can become invisible. It is likely that he can also assimilate other casters into himself. What is to stop him from croaking, controlling or assimilating every other unit in the Magic Kingdom? I mean, if we think of Erfworld as a game, he can just say “I win. Game over.”

    Creating a character that is so powerful that it overwhelms the story, kinda breaks it for me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:32 pm 
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    While characters who are dead on the show could get a little more page time in the upcoming books, GRRM has to have told the showrunners know the overall arc of the upcoming plot, so I think it's safe to say that anybody dead on the show is irrelevant to the story's final chapters.
    The problem with DeiIsaac is that we have no idea of his capabilities, so everything he does seems like an ass-pull. Once we get to see a little more of him and have some idea of exactly what he is, I think it will be fine. Our reaction to him is probably very similar to the reaction that most Erfworlders have to Parson's shenanigans: they think they know how the world works, and the Titanic Scripture pretty much forbids experimentation ("know your number, don't try to change your number"). Then suddenly this powerful being shows up and he breaks all the rules. Parson is probably as mystifying to all units not on his side as DeiIsaac is to us.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:41 pm 
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    Taejang wrote:
    This update and last completely confuse me. I have no context for what is going on, who this new entity thing is, what its powers are, what its motivations are, etc. A climax is not the time for worldbuilding. A climax is not the time to confuse readers.


    Who says this is a climax? There could be 100+ pages in this book yet. And for all we know, after Issac is done with the mind meld with Ivan he releases him, and then runs off after getting what he wanted. Then Ivan and company continue doing what they were doing before.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:44 pm 
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    On the subject of writing, while it's generally true that good writing is easier to understand than bad writing, writing alone can't make the readers have any particular reaction. The interest and effort of the reader cannot be taken for granted. Even for a more visual medium like a webcomic, the medium is still quite passive compared to most other art forms. But that's not the real problem. Even for the most immersive art, the audience has to be receptive to the central themes for it to really affect them.

    One of Erfworld's earliest and deepest themes is "it's the little things which make a difference sometimes." And as the story has progressed, we've seen this theme presented in a manner quite unusual for most art. The little things are brought to the fore and allowed to actually make a difference. In most art, the 'humble origins' of a crucial element are usually something of an informed attribute, we don't get to see that element before being aware that it's important. And there is a reason for that, we usually need to be told what is and isn't going to be important to understand the story. But in Erfworld, those elements, especially 'bit characters', turn out to be important quite often, and without a lot of warning. Suddenly ''everything'' depends on the actions of a character that didn't seem to matter before. I used two sets of scare quotes there because the scare quotes on "everything" have to be in scare quotes, maybe I should have put each of them in their own scare quotes or something.

    I have to acknowledge that it can be a bit hard for readers, and the contract difficulties seem to me an illustration of how hard it must be for the author as well, how can a work of complete fiction even survive the level of scrutiny invited by really expressing the idea that any little detail could make all the difference? But I see all that as part of the enduring merit of Erfworld. It's not easy to write an epic graphic serialization where any little thing could turn out to be truly significant.

    For all I know, that bit about Mae fussing with her hair means it will turn out that she was using Foolamancy to change her hair color, and that particular habit is going to turn out to be the key to...what? Deiform infiltrating CC? Spotting archons susceptible to being turned short of decryption? The secret of attunement?

    Or, most likely, nothing at all.

    Cause it's only sometimes that the little things make such a difference.

    But that's what makes a work of art really great. That the tenth time looking at it, you're still finding things you never noticed before that still make it stand out from things that lose all their novelty after the first time. That you always find a new insight that changes the whole meaning such that you realize that you've never really understood it before. At some point, you suspect you're just seeing things that were accidents, but you don't know exactly where that happened, and yet you keep finding deeper levels that are clearly intentional.

    Or are they?

    After all, what's a littler thing than something the author didn't even put in on purpose?

    That said, Deiform is probably going to turn out to be sharply limited in ways that have already been guessed, like not lasting beyond this turn. Because the obvious things (like no juice restoration for casters who are already croaked, Isaac not being invulnerable to the effects of overclocking his brain by an order of magnitude, direct assault on CC's portal being suicidal, etc.) also get to make a difference.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:56 pm 
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    Taejang wrote:
    Good writing makes readers ask, "What is going to happen next?"

    Bad writing makes readers ask, "What the boop is going on?"

    This update and last completely confuse me. I have no context for what is going on, who this new entity thing is, what its powers are, what its motivations are, etc. A climax is not the time for worldbuilding. A climax is not the time to confuse readers. Perhaps whatever is going on would make sense in a novel, since in a novel I can turn the page and (maybe) get answers, but in a format where I have to wait to turn the page, I'm now completely perplexed for a full week. Probably longer, since the next update is likely jumping to Parson, Charlie, Stanley, or who knows who else.

    I know I'll get a lot of flak for saying all of this, as some of y'all are probably going to defend the snot out of these updates, but whatever. I think I'll wait until the end of Book 3 before reading any more updates, and I'll just have to hope Rob does eventually end this book in a manner that makes sense and doesn't involve too many more deus ex machinas.


    Please do not mistake individual impressions with "writing rules". Sometimes this forum have nice insights, but I REALLY hope Rob don't pay attention to self-proclaimed writing teachers (nor to teen-like anxiety). BTW, the "flak / defend" antecipations do not help legitimating a poor *personal* opinion.

    That's it, I just had to comment this post - going back to my non-participation mode.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:06 pm 
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    Ooh, did someone mention Brandon Sanderson?

    His big thing is that--well, let me quote him:

    Quote:
    Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic.


    Essentially, the more that protagonists (and readers by extension) learn about how their world works, the more capable they become of resolving the conflicts of the book.

    For instance, Shallan's arc in The Way Of Kings, plotwise, is essentially about gaining the ability to transmute stuff so she can use the resulting economic advantages to save her noble house IIRC.

    Spoilers ahoy, BTW. Seriously, go read Sanderson's stuff. He's incredibly good.

    In order to do transmutation, she needs a Macguffin--her family used to have one, but it broke. She has to do some espionage-y stuff in order to swap her broken one out for a good one belonging to Jasnah, a royal family member and notable scholar, who she convinces to take her on as a student. But the moment she manages to turn things around is actually from new knowledge, i.e. that Jasnah's Macguffin is a fake; the two of them are the only ones alive who even know it's possible to transmute stuff without a Macguffin. And the knowledge it takes to do that is also what alerts them to the larger conflict of the series, without going into to much detail.

    The theme of solving new problems by learning more stuff about the world is probably really common in fiction, now that I think about it. Sanderson's Law asserts that that theme has to apply to magic.

    But in the context of Erfworld, this is arguably the whole point of Book 1. Parson's dumped in a new and unfamiliar place. The more he learns about his situation, the more effective he becomes. This culminates in him discovering which rules are truly set-in-stone physics--hexes, relative time, etc.--and which ones are more social constructs and assumptions--i.e. "we were sure only casters could get through portals" and, more unfortunately, "we were certain that the turn only ended when the ruler said it did" in Book 2.

    Now we're at a point in the story where the world is setting up a new chaotic situation where the rules aren't as clear. Isaac, previously simply a really talented Thinkamancer, is now this weird hivemind that can kill people pretty arbitrarily, has some sort of mind control ability, and might be functionally omniscient in certain realms of knowledge (i.e. "where the sentient people are and what they're doing"). Assuming he's being set up as the next major antagonist, we're going to gradually learn more about what he can and can't do, then Parson will learn about it, and then the more he learns the better idea he'll have how to handle that conflict.

    Likewise with Jillian, who's been something of a background annoyance where GK is concerned, then suddenly became a major threat when Charlie gave her rifles and she realized GK couldn't fight back against her, and depending on what Marie does might go in yet another direction soon (e.g. she might pivot to crusading against Charlie if Marie reveals Book 0's events to her).

    In other words, for those concerned that the comic is going in a new direction that doesn't appeal to them as much: what I think Rob's doing right now is setting up a new chaotic and unfamiliar situation for Parson to wade into. If you miss Book 1, you'll have it back in a while.

    So, uh, yeah. Learning new things is an important part of narrative. Sanderson is really good at applying learning to magic. Rob's setting up new mysteries to be uncovered. Make sense? This is the climax for certain parts of the story, but also the setup for new arcs, at the same time.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:10 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    Maybe Deiform wants to upload consciousness into a tower. (Either Charlescomm's, or a new one built to the same specs, per my previous guesswork.)

    ... and then imagine a tower with Deiform's consciousness, with the Arkendish. Game over.


    I am having a hard time even coming up with speculation about what the Deiform (which is clearly not just Isaac, maybe Isaac is hooked up to it the way that Ivan is now?) would do if it could attune to the Dish (or just assimilate Charlie), but it would be amazing to see. Terrifying, possibly, but amazing.

    Right now it's crazy powerful but the most impressive stuff (Lookamantic reach, remote string cutting) seems to be just the GMTTA having cleverly created a thing that kept the power they used to hold collectively, maybe (?) inspired by the Jed-inspired discussions they unsealed. I think it's crazy powerful because they were. Maybe they did so with the idea it would pursue the goals they always had. Maybe it will take over the GMTTA's self-chosen role as protector of all the disciplines in the MK, but as kind of a mysterious boogieman.

    My best guess is that the Deiform's biggest weakness is that it can only act within a hex (because both those powers were only 'within a hex' before), which means in Erfworld proper it's a lot less powerful than a good army, just the MK that it could rule if it wanted to. Unless someone gives it the dish. That's probably a bad idea but I do kind of want to see what would happen.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:49 pm 
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    Seven "matrix-style" plugs in Ivan, for the seven minds that are now linking with him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 11:58 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Chances are good that Parson has read Watchmen, right?


    I'd say chances are very good given the Watchmen happy face with blood spatter kippah Parson's friend was wearing back in Stupidworld on game day:
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/16

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:07 am 
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    Yikes!

    Also, I was really fond of poor Dig Doug. I hope he's O.K.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:21 am 
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    Dumb thought, but was the Deiform intentional? The minds had been scrying on Ivan and Claud before they turned, this action figure doesn't have it's scouting veil and they knew what the wrench could do.

    It seems unlikely since they were actively communicating with Roger at the time, but we don't know how well a State 7 can multitask. Perhaps the Deiform was an attempt to keep the Temple active and secure without the use of Polarized Stuff.

    Thinkamancers can access the natural Predictamancy of Intuition, much like Charlie's Archon polling method, and Roger has established that they feel a well put together decision tree is better than Prediction so maybe they knew that Issac was the most likely to survive and purposely turned him into the Deiform.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:32 am 
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    Knavigator wrote:
    Dumb thought, but was the Deiform intentional? The minds had been scrying on Ivan and Claud before they turned, this action figure doesn't have it's scouting veil and they knew what the wrench could do.

    It seems unlikely since they were actively communicating with Roger at the time, but we don't know how well a State 7 can multitask. Perhaps the Deiform was an attempt to keep the Temple active and secure without the use of Polarized Stuff.

    Thinkamancers can access the natural Predictamancy of Intuition, much like Charlie's Archon polling method, and Roger has established that they feel a well put together decision tree is better than Prediction so maybe they knew that Issac was the most likely to survive and purposely turned him into the Deiform.


    Time runs more slowly while they link. So yeah, they likely knew the temple was falling and deliberately saved their minds with Issac. I think a lot of it was on purpose. The fact though that the temple didn't fall on Issac of all people, must have been fate. But I think most of the rest was deliberate by the Great Minds.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:19 am 
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    Arcana wrote:

    Creating a character that is so powerful that it overwhelms the story, kinda breaks it for me.

    (looks at Wanda with pliers, Charlies with Dish) . . . Hmm.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:59 am 
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    Well, we've already had established that a State 8 trance fusion (never explicitly named as such) was theoretically possible but had never been tried by the Minds (or by anybody, as far as they knew), and was labeled theoretical. Interestingly, one of the other theoretical states might be State 1, implying a trance fusion consisting of a single caster.

    We don't really know whether Deiform is a State 8 or a State 1 (also not named) trance fusion, or perhaps whether the reason that there are a number of "theoretical" States is because of some necessary overlap between the two, like State 8 requiring erasure of fixed distinctions between participating minds and State 1 requiring only a single caster. The source in the text is somewhat ambiguous, it might be that States 1-7 are all achievable, and the theoretical states would 8-11.

    Which is why there were people jumping right to "Isaac is in State 8 fusion with the croaked minds" as soon as we saw that he had survived the Temple collapse. And if achieving this state inherently required having all the participating minds packed into a single body...that pretty well explains why it was theoretical...till now. Of course, that in turn suggests that the downsides of achieving Deiform are consistent with the expected downsides of most of the GMTTA being croaked.

    And yet, they seem to have named it "Deiform" anyways. That's reasonably consistent with it having capabilities significantly greater than a State 7 trance fusion...while it lasts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:35 am 
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    One piece of setup that hasn't yet (but may soon) give some insight into Deisaac's nature and powers is the power of Croakamancy, as self-narrated by RVC - when a being is croaked, its last act of will can manifest as a sort of curse against one's foes. The croaking of so many powerful casters, most of which understood Naughtimantic sacrifice as well as RVC does, would surely have empowered Deisaac with an incredibly potent Naughtimantic curse against Charlie, in addition to whatever emergency casting dumped as much of their Thinkamantic power as possible into Isaac's body.

    I suppose Deisaac's apparent focus on Charlie may be part of that, but if there's more to it, hopefully Wanda will pick up on it, should she encounter Deisaac herself.

    And... we've only seen Deisaac be powerful so far, so powerful it seems broken, but I do concur that we will eventually see limits to it, in some form. It's just not clear yet what those limits would be, or who (or what) will be the first to encounter and exploit them (or if its limits are merely time, juice, or upkeep as some have suggested). I still, as I said earlier, have hope that Rob has been planning for Deisaac for a long time and has some idea of what he intends to do with it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:43 am 
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    vreejack wrote:
    greyknight wrote:
    YRM DM wrote:
    he probably needs something major to happen to wipe out a bunch of characters

    There's that Game of Thrones connection again. :lol:


    That's only true for the show. In the books major characters only die for a good reason: either because they earned it or because it is necessary to advance the plot, not because their thread is still dangling.
    Spoiler: show
    Many of the dead show characters are still fine in the books, in addition to the 2nd and 3rd tiers of major characters who were added after the first book. Only two Starks are dead (instead of four in the show.) Jojen Reed's death was much creepier and more meaningful in the book. In the book Rorge and Biter's deaths were not silly. Barristan Selmy is stressed-out but otherwise fine. Stannis Baratheon is due for a couple of new story arcs. Mance Rayder is still a power at large. Some of the Bloody Mummers are still in the country. The Mountain's men are still in play and even Quentyn Martell is probably still alive, appearances notwithstanding. When Faithful Urswyk finally takes a dirt nap you probably wont feel like GRRM needed to tie up a loose end.

    Edit: Even Tommen and Myrcella are still alive, probably. It's hard to tell--Myrcella might have been killed or wounded, or it might have been her body double. Even the real culprit is unclear. Lancel is also still alive, for the nonce. Edit: as are all the Tyrells, who producers D&D just seemed to want to eliminate in the show so they would have more time for their favorite characters.


    A lot of what you wrote is true, but main reason different characters are alive in the books is that the show is ahead of the books. In the books Tyrion hasn't met Dragon queen and Stannis has been last seen in snow storm. Mance jumped down from Winterhold walls.
    Anyway, show and books parted their ways long time ago.

    DeIsaac`s abilities don`t seem so far fetched to me. String cutting has been shown as ability of state 7. Being invisible is the ability of foolamancers and it is safe to assume that some of gestalt`s minds are of foolamancers. And assimilating Ivan seems like linking to me.

    DeIsaac is now a Linker. He is linking decrypted casters to make super program.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:58 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    No one in particular wrote:
    Dear TITANS, a cracked Great Mind is a terror to behold.

    Also, huh. Hints of circuitry there...

    Yeah, those are definitely sockets at Ivan's back and not mere "strings". Charlie was looking for a socket when he was tangling with Lilith.


    I notice there are seven of them. They're probably his shockras...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 265
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:12 am 
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    I'd like to address all the people signing up to announce they're out or who are feeling upset with the direction of the story. It's not criticism of you or an attempt to refute you; I'd just like to give you a perspective you may not have considered. I was originally going to post about this a few updates ago, in response to the fresh wave of Jillian hate, but I was unsure I was correct. This update solidified my belief about the nature of this story but I was partially ninja-ed for my hesitation.

    Erfworld is what you would get if you took a conventional story but rotated the reader's perspective by about 135 degrees. In fact, the easiest story to compare it to is Robert E Howard's The Tower of the Elephant. It's a tale of Conan the Barbarian. Please bear with me; this will not be an entirely accurate comparison and I will intentionally mislead you about something, but I'm going somewhere with this.

    The story begins in an old civilization, basically a craphole populated by a bunch of pricks. Conan (Jillian) is in a tavern there when he learns of the Tower of the Elephant, which contains a massive magic jewel called the Heart of the Elephant (Arkentools) and is home to an evil sorcerer named Yara (Wanda) who even the king (Stanley) is afraid to cross. The tower seems to be only lightly guarded, largely in part to everyone being terrified of dying horribly to some supernatural fate for trying. Having literally no motivation beyond "Hey, craploads of wealth, adventure, and a chance to pit my bravery and skill against a challenge" (again, Jillian) he goes off to burgle the tower with literally no plan.

    Conan arrives at the tower, sizes it up, and waits for his chance to get past the guard... but the guard abruptly fails to make his next round. After curiosity finally gets the better of him, Conan clears the wall and finds the guard murdered. He notices a stranger, who he attacks because why not, and despite Conan being nearly silent the stranger skillfully evades the attack. After a moment of sizing each other up, the stranger identifies himself as Taurus, who Conan knows by name as a much-respected thief (Charlie). After a very brief conversation, the men are impressed with each other and decide to join forces, with Conan following Taurus' lead having recognized him as being a superior thief.

    Taurus' plan is to scale the entire tower and enter through an entrance on the top; it's the only unguarded door because it's implausible anyone would reach it (rules loophole). They make their way up the tower, with Taurus revealing he's armed himself with clever inventions (Carnymancy) that allow them to face some of the tower's unnatural guardians and to scale a wall as smooth as glass. Taurus also helps Conan focus on what is important when he gets distracted by smaller rewards on the way (several times, Book 2). Conan, however, does save Taurus from a guardian he missed due to bad luck, so this is not a totally one-sided arrangement (ICFYS).

    When they reach the top, they find a gold door. Literally gold. It's unlocked and there is a room full of gems and other wealth in chests. Taurus says he will go inside first, and instructs Conan to go look down and make sure their escape hasn't been cut off before they commit to the last leg of their home invasion. While Conan is looking, Taurus suffers some unnatural fate inside the tower, stumbles outside, and dies. Conan enters the tower, wary, and narrowly avoids being killed by a giant, intelligent spider Taurus hadn't known about (meddling GM BS). Conan fights the spider slightly effectively until it begins just throwing webbing everywhere. He gets stuck, the spider moves in for the kill, and in a fit of rage Conan chucks a chest at the spider instead of using his sword. The spider didn't anticipate this and was instantly curbstomped (lateral thinking; no, I'm kidding, that was a joke for Anonymous 167; this is random improvisation).

    Almost done. Hang in there.

    Conan descends and discovers a bizarre otherworldly creature, shaped vaguely like a man but with a giant elephant head named Yag-kosha (Parson). This creature reveals that the sorcerer Yara (again, Wanda) was his apprentice who eventually turned on him and tortured him for knowledge. He reveals other things, but that's deep in the weeds. He shows Conan where the Heart of the Elephant (the gem which kind of represents the Arkentools) is. The short of it is, he asks Conan to kill him, so that in his death he can cast a spell to completely screw over Yara, which long story short results in Yara being shrunk and sucked into the gem so that he dies in complete terror (actual lateral thinking).

    Why in the hell did I bring all that up? Conan is not an intrinsically interesting character; he's simple and his motivations are simple, but you like him because he's heroic and serves as a way for you to experience an adventure. The places he encounters, the enemies he faces, the battles he survives -- these things make his stories interesting.

    Erfworld is what would happen if you spent most of the story following the traditional antagonists and hanging out in the ancient deathtrap-filled tomb. You're already seeing the interesting stuff without Conan (Jillian). So when this guy (girl) who you know absolutely won't die comes along, it's a let-down. You actually have to stop focusing on the interesting stuff to watch this clown show up, knowing there's a good chance he (she) is going to smash some of the stuff you liked into dust.

    Jillian's been the main protagonist of the traditional story Erfworld is subverting. She's a barbarian fated to be queen (again, Conan, just female), who was in love with a prince, but was away when he died in battle, and now he's been reanimated by an evil sorceress as something that may be a mockery of life. She's joined forces with a reluctant wizard (Charlie, a supporting protagonist) who is forced to give up some of his safety and wealth. Why? Because he knows he has to stop the weak, idiot king and the genocidal sorceress who is murdering people to turn them into her servants and who has enslaved an otherworldly being as an adviser.

    It's just you've been seeing that story rotated. Even Parson comments on the signamancy. Stanley is that boss everyone hates. Wanda is a skull-adorned necromancer who regularly rotates through decades of cartoons' villains' gear. They have a volcano lair and are aided by goblinoids. Except... the classic story model isn't just rotated, it's also been subverted. There isn't really a clear good guy or bad guy in this whole thing.

    Look at this update through the lens of Jillian and Charlie as the protagonists. This isn't the climax for GK; this is the lowest point for the heroes. They've both lost everything in a largely unsatisfying manner. Even the clever Charlie has been completely undermined, with every move he's made resulting in complete BS consequences to make his situation worse. That's not a criticism of Rob; it's a criticism of the unseen antagonist.

    As I said tl;dr ago, I intentionally mislead you on one thing. The relationship between Yag-kosha and Yara is not Parson to Wanda. Parson is not Wanda's tortured slave who makes things happen to serve her will. Yag-kosha is Wanda and Yara is Erf's Railroading GM (also known as "Fate"). Wanda is the tortured slave doing the GM's bidding.

    The antagonist of Erfworld has always been railroading. What we've been experiencing over these last few updates is meant to make us hate railroading. You're seeing a GM pull increasingly ridiculous things out of his ass to compensate for a player improvising things he'd never anticipated.

    With that in mind, two predictions.

    1) Deisaac will most likely download everything from Ivan and transmit it as pure information to Parson. The current page's signamancy is a reference to Matrix 3, but specifically it proceeds the plot resolution where Neo is used as a trojan horse to allow an external force to target Smith for destruction. The threads of the GMTTA will dissipate at the end of turn (similar to how Slately's double was able to function as king for the remainder of the turn), leaving Isaac a gibbering idiot. My impression is pineapple's mind is stuck in the transfusion, which is why pineapple's coherent in mindspace but moronic in meatspace.

    2) Something has to break Fate. Charlie hasn't been using Jillian against GK because she's the only one who would talk to him in Book 2. He was trying to subvert Fate by setting up two characters with Plot Armor fight each other. The only ways to break Fate are to either cause it to become contradicted (e.g. disbanding Marie or Wanda) or causing the equivalent of a programming threadlock where two predestined outcomes are both waiting for the other to finish before they can run (this logic error result in both outcomes waiting forever).

    Edit: Used the wrong pronoun for Deisaac. Unforgivable.

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    RPG Erfworld - Stack Management Mechanics suggestion


    Last edited by The Unlurked on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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