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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:49 am 
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SteveMB wrote:
Interesting that Jillian seems to react to the possibility of being croaked and decrypted much better than she reacted to Wanda "[going] too far" with considerably less extreme measures in Book 1.

To be sure, a potential future event carries less weight than an actual past one... and this one carries the temptation of being reunited with both Wanda and Ansom....


It's not only interesting, I think it's facinating character developement. It fits what we have already seen and know about Jillian, and it raises (in my mind at least) the admittedly unlikely possibility that, when she finally confronts Ansom and Wanda, Jillian won't even try to fight, rather she'll just step forward, lower her guard, and ask them to take her. Not going to happen, but fun to fantasize about.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:44 am 
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    *cough*

    There are no goblins in GK...

    Charlie is most likely responsible for this...

    Charlie has significant forces in the battlespace. Not Archons...forces

    There are some veiled Archons working with Jillian but I think the reason that we arent seeing Charlies forces is because they are underground. Methinks we are about to find out where the goblins went and how Charlie turned them.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:15 pm 
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    Angband wrote:
    No, Vanna almost never said anything on WoF.


    Terribly, terribly minor point... but at age 52, Vanna's still on Wheel of Fortune every night. She does occassionally talk during opening banter w/Pat Sajak, but otherwise, no, no on-camera chatter.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:19 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    Menas wrote:
    PlotArmour wrote:
    To summarise; I have no problem with Charlie and TV having troops to help, they obviously want to be involved. If Charlie has 200 Archons committed to the battle, that's fine. What's ridiculous, and what makes it a Dues Ex Machina, is them turning up in the middle of the battlespace when logic to date tells us they can't, and winning the battle.


    Except that logic doesn't tell us they can't be there. I have yet to see one case in the storyline where a veil hasn't worked, so there's no reason to believe the archons can't be in the vicinity and veiled, especially if the people in the area don't have enough information to know that they should specificially be looking for them.


    Ahem. Ibrows. Ossomer. Capture. Arrows. Dittomancer.


    The veil worked in this case. Jetstone didn't even know the units they were attacking weren't real until their arrows went right through them.

    The point I was making was that no-one yet in the storyline has seen through a veil PRIOR to it being used for the purpose it was designed for.

    - Parson used a veil on the twoll to trick Ansom. Worked. Didn't go away until the twoll attacked.
    - Jack used a veil to make dwagons and archons look like siege and infantry. Worked. Didn't go away until Ansom told him to drop the veil.
    - Jack used displacement to make units appear to be somewhere they weren't. Worked. Jetstone didn't know the units weren't real until they discovered they weren't taking any damage. And until Jack got hurt and they went away, but it was a moot point by then as they already knew the displaced units were fake.

    In each of these cases, the veil didn't go away until the person using it attacked (which means it served its purpose), or intentionally dropped it. In none of these cases did anyone recognize that a veil was present prior to the attacker having the drop on them.

    So again, there's no reason to believe Charlie's units couldn't be there and veiled without being discovered.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:31 pm 
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    PlotArmour wrote:
    I understand the turn system pretty well. The problem is people have said "Archons could be in nearby space, but have lots of move!". The problem is they can't enter the battle space until it's their turn... and it's GK's turn... so they have to be in the same battlespace as spacerock now... so it seems we're being pitched the "invisible! Awesome! 200 Archons! Magic hats that Dwagon hordes can fly out of!!!" angle... sure, I made up the last one, but at this point it wouldn't be unlikely...


    I also said that if the archons are close enough that they can help defend Spacerock from an attack, since they have ranged attacks. Just like the archers did that were in a nearby hex when Wanda was trying to capture Ossomer.

    And there could be several other ways they could be incorporated into the story. For all we know they could be veiled as infantry that Jillian flew in.

    The fact that Charlie and Jillian came up with a strategy that is likely to lay waste to Wanda doesn't suddenly make it a Deus Ex-machina. Unless you want GK to win regardless and are going to declare any strategy that's not spelled out ahead of time a Deus Ex-machina because you don't want GK to lose... which is what this is starting to sound like.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:42 pm 
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    AngryAngel wrote:
    SteveMB wrote:
    Interesting that Jillian seems to react to the possibility of being croaked and decrypted much better than she reacted to Wanda "[going] too far" with considerably less extreme measures in Book 1.

    To be sure, a potential future event carries less weight than an actual past one... and this one carries the temptation of being reunited with both Wanda and Ansom....


    It's not only interesting, I think it's facinating character developement. It fits what we have already seen and know about Jillian, and it raises (in my mind at least) the admittedly unlikely possibility that, when she finally confronts Ansom and Wanda, Jillian won't even try to fight, rather she'll just step forward, lower her guard, and ask them to take her. Not going to happen, but fun to fantasize about.


    Oh, I would so pay to see a noncannon strip where that happens. 8-)

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:36 pm 
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    Menas wrote:
    I also said that if the archons are close enough that they can help defend Spacerock from an attack, since they have ranged attacks. Just like the archers did that were in a nearby hex when Wanda was trying to capture Ossomer.
    I'm pretty sure the archers in question were in the same hex, just a different stack.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:06 pm 
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    Yeah, any given battle only encompasses all of the units in one hex.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:29 pm 
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    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    Infidel wrote:
    Your thesis, that only a flier can scout, is without basis in fact.


    No, others can scout, but we are talking effectively scouting here.You have a number of large hexes, you have a number of small things in a hex hidden by a foolamancy effect.And since the only things we have be told pose a threat to veils are foolamancers, archons and smart/lucky warlords, well...


    I just want to point out that this is a misquote. Plotarmor was the one that said that, not me.

    ErfNch wrote:
    Even Parson seem to believe she's done the smartest thing to do, he don't seem remotely surprised that Charlie's troop aren't mentionned.


    Nah, Parson does not believe she's done the smartest thing. "I'll give her that." is a criticism not a compliment, an attempt to find some silver lining to another's actions.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:45 pm 
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    Kaveman26 wrote:
    *cough*

    There are no goblins in GK...

    Charlie is most likely responsible for this...

    Charlie has significant forces in the battlespace. Not Archons...forces

    There are some veiled Archons working with Jillian but I think the reason that we arent seeing Charlies forces is because they are underground. Methinks we are about to find out where the goblins went and how Charlie turned them.


    hmmm... CAN Gobwins move underground in non-mountain regions? we've never seen that capabibility before, have we?

    If they CAN do that, that really WOULD be a brilliant countermove by charlie. I'm starting to hope that you're right.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:57 pm 
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    AngryAngel wrote:
    SteveMB wrote:
    Interesting that Jillian seems to react to the possibility of being croaked and decrypted much better than she reacted to Wanda "[going] too far" with considerably less extreme measures in Book 1.

    To be sure, a potential future event carries less weight than an actual past one... and this one carries the temptation of being reunited with both Wanda and Ansom....


    It's not only interesting, I think it's facinating character developement. It fits what we have already seen and know about Jillian, and it raises (in my mind at least) the admittedly unlikely possibility that, when she finally confronts Ansom and Wanda, Jillian won't even try to fight, rather she'll just step forward, lower her guard, and ask them to take her. Not going to happen, but fun to fantasize about.


    Yeah. When she was a mercenery, she could indulge in S&M games. But now as a leader, i don't think duty would permit her to deliberately do something detrimental to the side she leads.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:16 pm 
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    I thought of underground, but it doesn't solve the turn problem, in fact it makes it worse. Tunnelling takes a long time, they'd have been aware of the Gobwin tunnellers ages ago. Plus if they're deep enough they're not, then it means they're outside the hex, and so useless until it's too late. Also, Jetstone would take precautions like every other side does, to prevent secret tunnels, and they have marbits galore to keep an eye out for it.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:27 pm 
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    Menlo Marseilles wrote:
    Menas wrote:
    I also said that if the archons are close enough that they can help defend Spacerock from an attack, since they have ranged attacks. Just like the archers did that were in a nearby hex when Wanda was trying to capture Ossomer.
    I'm pretty sure the archers in question were in the same hex, just a different stack.


    You might be right. I looked back at the strip and it only specifies the Prince's stack is being attacked. For some reason I remembered that as Prince's hex.

    It doesn't appear to be definitive at this point, but what you stated is most certainly one possible interpretation as things stand currently.


    Last edited by Menas on Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:57 pm 
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    PlotArmour wrote:
    I thought of underground, but it doesn't solve the turn problem, in fact it makes it worse. Tunnelling takes a long time, they'd have been aware of the Gobwin tunnellers ages ago. Plus if they're deep enough they're not, then it means they're outside the hex, and so useless until it's too late. Also, Jetstone would take precautions like every other side does, to prevent secret tunnels, and they have marbits galore to keep an eye out for it.


    maybe... but most of that is only a problem if the charlescomm gobwins tunneled ALL THE WAY from gobwin knob to jetstone.

    What if Charlie airlifted them, or veiled a landmarch by them, then, ONCE THEY'RE IN PLACE, he ordered them to dig straight down and bunker?

    As long as he didn't get TOO close to jetstone, he MIGHT get away with it. Maybe the charlescomm gobwins are directly beneath Wanda's Army, or less than half a turn BEHIND wanda's army? Wanda could be inside a pincer and not realize it.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:01 pm 
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    Dr Pepper wrote:
    AngryAngel wrote:
    SteveMB wrote:
    Interesting that Jillian seems to react to the possibility of being croaked and decrypted much better than she reacted to Wanda "[going] too far" with considerably less extreme measures in Book 1.

    To be sure, a potential future event carries less weight than an actual past one... and this one carries the temptation of being reunited with both Wanda and Ansom....


    It's not only interesting, I think it's facinating character developement. It fits what we have already seen and know about Jillian, and it raises (in my mind at least) the admittedly unlikely possibility that, when she finally confronts Ansom and Wanda, Jillian won't even try to fight, rather she'll just step forward, lower her guard, and ask them to take her. Not going to happen, but fun to fantasize about.


    Yeah. When she was a mercenery, she could indulge in S&M games. But now as a leader, i don't think duty would permit her to deliberately do something detrimental to the side she leads.


    Not really. The three forces that you're thinking of are:

    Obedience: Units are compelled to obey orders. Jillian's a ruler, so no one can actually give her orders.
    Duty: Affects commanders only, prevents conspiring against the ruler. Again, Jillian is a ruler.
    Loyalty: Affects how likely a unit is to double deal. This is the kicker. My argument is that Jillian is, again, a ruler, and thus everything on her side belongs to her, people included. Yes, it's effectively slavery, but that's how erfworld works. Her units have to be loyal to her, she doesn't have to be loyal to them.

    So, it's effectively her choice. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent it, if that's what she chooses.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:03 pm 
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    Krennson wrote:
    PlotArmour wrote:
    I thought of underground, but it doesn't solve the turn problem, in fact it makes it worse. Tunnelling takes a long time, they'd have been aware of the Gobwin tunnellers ages ago. Plus if they're deep enough they're not, then it means they're outside the hex, and so useless until it's too late. Also, Jetstone would take precautions like every other side does, to prevent secret tunnels, and they have marbits galore to keep an eye out for it.


    maybe... but most of that is only a problem if the charlescomm gobwins tunneled ALL THE WAY from gobwin knob to jetstone.

    What if Charlie airlifted them, or veiled a landmarch by them, then, ONCE THEY'RE IN PLACE, he ordered them to dig straight down and bunker?

    As long as he didn't get TOO close to jetstone, he MIGHT get away with it. Maybe the charlescomm gobwins are directly beneath Wanda's Army, or less than half a turn BEHIND wanda's army? Wanda could be inside a pincer and not realize it.


    Nothing ever said that gobwins can make tunnels, just that they are tunnel capable, meaning that they can walk in tunnels. Remember, Sizemore had to dig most of everything. I may be wrong though, or Charlie may have hired a ditamancer, in which case this just may be the perfect strategy.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:11 pm 
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    AngryAngel wrote:
    It's not only interesting, I think it's facinating character developement. It fits what we have already seen and know about Jillian, and it raises (in my mind at least) the admittedly unlikely possibility that, when she finally confronts Ansom and Wanda, Jillian won't even try to fight, rather she'll just step forward, lower her guard, and ask them to take her. Not going to happen, but fun to fantasize about.

    You're suggesting a context in which Jillian would choose not to fight? Have you been reading about the same Jillian that I have? Now, she might be happy enough with losing and getting decrypted, but I can't really picture her not fighting in the first place.

    Sinrus wrote:
    Nothing ever said that gobwins can make tunnels, just that they are tunnel capable, meaning that they can walk in tunnels. Remember, Sizemore had to dig most of everything. I may be wrong though, or Charlie may have hired a ditamancer, in which case this just may be the perfect strategy.

    Gobwins mine for gems. Presumably that requires tunneling.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:21 pm 
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    That involves hitting a tunnel wall with a pickaxe. Sure in RL that equals tunneling, but I envision in like in a strategy game like Tribal Wars: just a guy with a pickaxe hitting a wall all day long, with no visible achievements, but somehow managing to collect resources.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:22 pm 
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    Am I the only one who thought her reference to 'Duncan' the Chief Warlord was an allusion to Duncan Idaho? And if so, that means his role will grow and be more interesting soon.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:31 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    That involves hitting a tunnel wall with a pickaxe. Sure in RL that equals tunneling, but I envision in like in a strategy game like Tribal Wars: just a guy with a pickaxe hitting a wall all day long, with no visible achievements, but somehow managing to collect resources.


    The tunnels under Gobwin Knob were made for mining. We also saw on the very first few pages of issue 1 that sides get resources from gems, which are gained from mining, by finding them. It is almost sure that gobwins and marbits being tunnel capable means that they can create tunnels within a hex, for mining and scouting.

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