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 Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
 Post Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:53 am 
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Speaking of the idea of signomancy being used to create actual signs XD Im just imagineing some of the erfworld translations for classic signs and if they'd confer a bonus.

'Beware of weiner rammers'
'dwagon crossing'
'My other mount is your capital'
'Disband me'

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:30 pm 
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    Lothmar wrote:
    Speaking of the idea of signomancy being used to create actual signs XD Im just imagineing some of the erfworld translations for classic signs and if they'd confer a bonus.


    I think we already have an example of signamancy. The archons and the DDR scene. And yes, it gave a bonus.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:27 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    I think we already have an example of signamancy. The archons and the DDR scene. And yes, it gave a bonus.


    I have to disagree. It may be an example of signamancy but I doubt it. Also I dint think it gave a bonus. It gave them the chance to get a dance bonus but it didn't directly confer it.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:29 pm 
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    If it's not Signamancy, then which type do you think it is? It's not Follamancy, since nothing is being changed. There's no one illusion Discipline: seems to be split up amongst many Discs.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:40 pm 
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    Im fairly certain the lightshow was thinkamancy. Since Ansom could dance fight but his troops didnt have the capability to, he projected his ability through their thinkamancy spell by matching the beat on the makeshift pad (rug).

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:06 pm 
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    Lothmar wrote:
    Im fairly certain the lightshow was thinkamancy. Since Ansom could dance fight but his troops didnt have the capability to, he projected his ability through their thinkamancy spell by matching the beat on the makeshift pad (rug).


    Thinkamancy does seem to be the most likely, as the Archons already showed that they possessed capability in that discipline (with "Thinkagrams") and Thinkamancy seems a logical choice for transmitting one unit's traits to others (not to say that there aren't other possibilities, just that Thinkamancy does seem to fit the bill).

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:08 am 
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    My thoughts on signamancy is that it gives the caster the ability to know when a important or critcal moment is right at hand that they can directly influence or affect but gives them no knowledge of future events from that moment. This would require lots of background knowledge to be effective ergo the more you know the more effective you can be using signamancy. This would explain how Parson's many snap decisions came out mostly good for him.

    Predictamancy though seems more of a far off magic to me. It can tell you the outcome as it currently lies but not how you get there and what could change that outcome.

    Let me know if any of that seems too out there though.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:12 pm 
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    Lothmar wrote:
    Im fairly certain the lightshow was thinkamancy. Since Ansom could dance fight but his troops didnt have the capability to, he projected his ability through their thinkamancy spell by matching the beat on the makeshift pad (rug).


    Guys, I really don't think so. As with Illusions/Holograms, classic DnD style classification is not the same for ErfWorld. If there is any school for making really big moving symbols, that's going to be Signamancy. Rob says that Signamancy is about signs, and symbols are signs. Thinkamancy can create small illusions, yes, but that doesn't make Veiling Thinkamancy. Foolamancy is about big illusions. Here we have big symbols. Thinkamancy is about mental contact, but that's not what the hanging symbols of DDR are. They are moving symbols, and symbols are signs, and signs are Signamancy.

    I don't think there is any need for a mental component to the DDR spell. Ansom is at the front demonstrating the dance, and the symbols are providing a reference. Nothing more is necessary to mimic Ansom and dance-fight.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 4:02 pm 
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    I don't think that Thinkamancy can do illusions of any size. The veil on Bogroll (which I believe is the "small illusion" you're thinking of), was a Foolamancy spell Maggie cast from one of the scroll's in Wanda's stash. Thinkamancy does occasionally have a visual component, as with the "Thinkagrams" used by Maggie and the archons. The fact that this power manifests as a visual, tv-like image instead of traditional telepathy is more an artistic choice. One is more interesting to see in the comic.

    I think that the DDR effect is similar. The spell could have manifested as simple mental control, but that's not nearly as entertaining to see as a horde of infantry stepping in unison to a giant video screen and techno beat.

    My interpretation of Signamancy, based off of what we've heard from Rob and Jamie is that the "signs" used in Signamancy are literal signs and gestures (the peace sign, the finger, protest signs...). My bet is that the Vulcan Nerve Pinch we saw was Signamancy. It's a gesture that has a certain pop culture value.

    Also, I balk slightly from assigning additional powers to the archons when the effect can be explained by a power that already know they possess. Until I see evidence that this effect could not be Thinkamancy, or that the archons possess Signamancy, I'm going to stick to my opinion.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 6:07 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Lothmar wrote:
    Im fairly certain the lightshow was thinkamancy. Since Ansom could dance fight but his troops didnt have the capability to, he projected his ability through their thinkamancy spell by matching the beat on the makeshift pad (rug).


    Guys, I really don't think so. As with Illusions/Holograms, classic DnD style classification is not the same for ErfWorld. If there is any school for making really big moving symbols, that's going to be Signamancy. Rob says that Signamancy is about signs, and symbols are signs. Thinkamancy can create small illusions, yes, but that doesn't make Veiling Thinkamancy. Foolamancy is about big illusions. Here we have big symbols. Thinkamancy is about mental contact, but that's not what the hanging symbols of DDR are. They are moving symbols, and symbols are signs, and signs are Signamancy.

    I don't think there is any need for a mental component to the DDR spell. Ansom is at the front demonstrating the dance, and the symbols are providing a reference. Nothing more is necessary to mimic Ansom and dance-fight.


    Well actually, I believe Dance-Fight is an ability that can be taken as you level up. Sort of like taking leadership or other abilities, it all depends on character build/personality, etc. In fact, I believe that is why parson prepared his battle plan as such for the garrison so that he could have a bonus his opponents did not.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0140.html
    He also explains that the uncroaked could only dance fight because it was a special ability granted by a master class croakamancer who could lead the dance fight; notice she never actually engages in dance fighting as she is projecting the ability to the uncroaked.

    Just because a 'commander' has 'Dance fight' does not mean he can confer that same ability to all his troops normally though however. At best he may be able to lead his 'stack' though I doubt it. I think this is why they used a handful of archons to set up the grid, so they could project the ability to the soldiers. In fact, Maggie uses the term 'guide' a dance fight and we know that the archons use thinkamancy, not foolamancy.
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0142.html
    You also notice that ansom never actually engages in 'dance fighting', he remains stationary the entire battle on the rug following the display. I believe since he was practically the only one on site who had dance fight parson was so set on stopping him.

    On another note, I think the explanation in the most recent comic is helpful; but will not solve the debate between the two tiers of a similar school of magic.
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F148.jpg

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 7:59 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    If it's not Signamancy, then which type do you think it is? It's not Follamancy, since nothing is being changed. There's no one illusion Discipline: seems to be split up amongst many Discs.


    The original trimancer had the ability to create a projection on the eyemancy table. Which discipline (or combination of) made that aspect of the spell possible isn't clear. It could be foolamancy or thinkamancy easily. Lookamancy doesn't seem to fit at allProjections like that could also simply be a natural magic of the archon units. Them having hippymancy powers doesn't really jive well with me for some reason. They just don't seem the type.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:51 am 
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    Lothmar wrote:
    Well actually, I believe Dance-Fight is an ability that can be taken as you level up.


    *shrug* Speculation. There's no support for selectable abilities (like DnD Feats) in the comics. Given the limited set of abilities that one might select (can't choose flight, regeneration, fire, etc.), I really doubt it. There'd need to be a lot of selectable ones, and we have so few non-supernatural ones on the Natural Abilities list. In short, there's nothing except Dance-fight that you could select, so choosing from a list of 1 isn't a choice.

    Quote:
    Sort of like taking leadership or other abilities, it all depends on character build/personality, etc.


    No one "chooses" to take Leadership. It's the ability that makes one a Commander or Warlord. That takes a cash investment by the Ruler. That's pretty clear. You pop as a Warlord, or you can be raised from the ranks at massive expense to be a Warlord, but you don't choose to become a Warlord, if you are not one.

    Quote:
    In fact, I believe that is why parson prepared his battle plan as such for the garrison so that he could have a bonus his opponents did not.


    There's nothing in your statements that suggest this conclusion of a motivation different from his explicitly stated motivation. He states that he is stacking as many bonuses as possible to create a meatgrinder. That has nothing to do with what granted the ability to grant bonuses in the first place.

    Quote:
    He also explains that the uncroaked could only dance fight because it was a special ability granted by a master class croakamancer who could lead the dance fight; notice she never actually engages in dance fighting as she is projecting the ability to the uncroaked.


    Note that you never see any unit actually dancing at the moment it strikes anything. Wanda is in the front of the dance-fight from the camera's perspective, but there may be uncroaked behind the camera. If she were at the front, she'd be vulnerable to a directed attack by a Warlord stack.

    Quote:
    Just because a 'commander' has 'Dance fight' does not mean he can confer that same ability to all his troops normally though however. At best he may be able to lead his 'stack' though I doubt it. I think this is why they used a handful of archons to set up the grid, so they could project the ability to the soldiers.


    Uh, what was the point of the DDR, if not to confer dance-fight onto his troops? You're absolutely right without a doubt, so why are you waffling? If Ansom could confer his dance-fight without magic on his troops, he would not have needed the Archons.

    Quote:
    In fact, Maggie uses the term 'guide' a dance fight and we know that the archons use thinkamancy, not foolamancy.


    We don't "know" anything about the limits or abilities of Archons. We've seen them use Thinkamancy, and Shockamancy or some other offensive 'ancy that kills things. That we haven't seen them perform any other Discipline does not mean they are so limited. Further, please note that no Archon has ever appeared in the Magic Kingdom: they may not follow the normal rules. It is highly likely that they are the special unit of the Arkendish, which makes them, like Decrypted, special. We can't assume that they follow the normal caster rules, so we really can't limit them based on the knowledge of normal casters at this point.

    And, further, do not read too much into a single word used by a single person. This comic is not written such that certain terms are reserved for game use. The difference between "lead" and "guide" is not enough to make a game rule decision on. Authors need to avoid using the same word over and over again in their fiction. English is good for helping with that since it has such a large lexicon -- lots of words with similar meanings. Picking on a single use does not make that one use right and others slightly wrong. Erfworlders are born with knowledge, but lots of things are not specific. XP, for instance, is a theory, not a game rule. So it is a mistake to think that different people would think of the same ability in slightly different ways. Everyone is going to spin everything slightly differently.

    Quote:
    You also notice that ansom never actually engages in 'dance fighting', he remains stationary the entire battle on the rug following the display. I believe since he was practically the only one on site who had dance fight parson was so set on stopping him.


    You're presuming that anyone not seen dance-fighting can't. That's a pretty big assumption.

    Ansom does not remain on the rug high in the sky. Last frame in 128. Ansom is in formation at the front of the troops, on the ground facing the GK forces, not in the airspace above them facing the troops. Fourth frame in 129, Ansom is in the middle of a mass of RCC troops, not above and not in the front rank. If he'd remained in the sky, Parson could have had Maggie target him with air defences. Highest priority target in the RCC. No, he's away fromt he fighting keeping the fresh troops dance-fighting as they arrive to replace losses.

    Going to point you at 111 and 113. Caesar opens with a dance fight in 111, but when he strikes at Stanley in 113, it's an axe-kick, not a dance move. No one is ever shown dancing at the moment they are striking or defending. The dance-fighting lasts only until the blows need to be struck, but the bonus must continue beyond that point or there would be no point.

    Quote:
    On another note, I think the explanation in the most recent comic is helpful; but will not solve the debate between the two tiers of a similar school of magic.


    This summer will be one of revelation. A lot of answers are coming, especially on game rules.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:59 am 
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    Mikalyaran wrote:
    The original trimancer had the ability to create a projection on the eyemancy table. Which discipline (or combination of) made that aspect of the spell possible isn't clear. It could be foolamancy or thinkamancy easily. Lookamancy doesn't seem to fit at allProjections like that could also simply be a natural magic of the archon units. Them having hippymancy powers doesn't really jive well with me for some reason. They just don't seem the type.


    Foolamancy does illusions that change one thing to look like another. It's perfectly capable of making the top of a table change to look like a map, even without a link.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:39 pm 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    • Fate
      • Predictamancy: Predict the future
      • Thinkamancy: Control thoughts
      • Croakamancy: Raise from dead
      • Healamancy: Heal people

    Dealing with fate, not sure how thinkamancy fits in though, keeping the that vein, maybe the others are


    Thinkamancy is -far- more than just controlling thoughts, IMO. Look at Natural Thinkamancy. Look at Ruthlessness. Look at Charlie's abilities. No, I believe that Thinkamancy is under Fate because it is more than just a 'brute force' application of mind control, no matter how subtle that mind control may be. I think that Thinkamancy actually alters fate as well to help those things happen. I have no real proof for this, just untrammeled speculation. But it feels right. Thinkamancy has been shown to be very subtle, especially the Natural Thinkamancies. So I have a hard time believing it's -just- mind control.

    -Tug

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:47 am 
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    Housellama wrote:
    Thinkamancy is -far- more than just controlling thoughts, IMO. Look at Natural Thinkamancy. Look at Ruthlessness. Look at Charlie's abilities. No, I believe that Thinkamancy is under Fate because it is more than just a 'brute force' application of mind control, no matter how subtle that mind control may be. I think that Thinkamancy actually alters fate as well to help those things happen. I have no real proof for this, just untrammeled speculation. But it feels right. Thinkamancy has been shown to be very subtle, especially the Natural Thinkamancies. So I have a hard time believing it's -just- mind control.


    So, you think there is no Natural Shockamancy, Natural Croakamancy, etc.? Let's not get Thinkamancy as a Discipline confused with Natural Thinkamancy. Thinkamancy has a set number of spells, just like all Disciplines. For a Caster, Thinkamancy is no more complex than Shockamancy. On an intellectual level, yes, Thinkamancy is more, but a Caster is fundamentally limmited. It doesn't matter to Maggie that there are Natural THinkamancies: she can't use them any more than anyone else.

    BTW, don't look at Charlie. His abilities come from the Arkendish, and that's a rule breaker. It's just as much a mistake to take examples of Uncroaked from the Decrypted units of Wanda with the 'pliers.

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     Post subject: Re: Magical Speculation
     Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:09 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Housellama wrote:
    Thinkamancy is -far- more than just controlling thoughts, IMO. Look at Natural Thinkamancy. Look at Ruthlessness. Look at Charlie's abilities. No, I believe that Thinkamancy is under Fate because it is more than just a 'brute force' application of mind control, no matter how subtle that mind control may be. I think that Thinkamancy actually alters fate as well to help those things happen. I have no real proof for this, just untrammeled speculation. But it feels right. Thinkamancy has been shown to be very subtle, especially the Natural Thinkamancies. So I have a hard time believing it's -just- mind control.


    Let's not get Thinkamancy as a Discipline confused with Natural Thinkamancy. Thinkamancy has a set number of spells, just like all Disciplines. For a Caster, Thinkamancy is no more complex than Shockamancy. On an intellectual level, yes, Thinkamancy is more, but a Caster is fundamentally limited. It doesn't matter to Maggie that there are Natural Thinkamancies: she can't use them any more than anyone else.


    That's a logical fallacy. She has not demonstrated the ability to use them UP TO THIS POINT. That does not mean she is incapable. I get your point, but I think you're taking canon to strictly. What we have seen is not all that there is. Past results are no guarantee of future performance. Perfect example, Wanda's Dance Fighting. With your view, Croakamancers could not Dance Fight... right up until they could.

    -Tug

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