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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:11 pm 
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maybe this will translate to Parson assigning FATE as one of the Titans, and getting somehow Benny to tell about numbers.

Parson should already know about that ERF axys. Man it's a classic Conning and the protagonist haven't figured it out yet. Charlie found that ages ago since his Carny senses told him what is supposed to happen. :3

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:17 pm 
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    I... I actually see some sense on Parson's assumption...

    What IS a Titan on Erfworld? Is it someone that created the world? Is a being of unfathomable power? What if a Titan is someone able to wield a power beyond any other power in Erfworld?
    I mean here as a concept of a god in a D&D sense. Is a god in D&D just a very powerful Outsider with access to some powers beyond normal Outsiders?
    Like the Arkentools. What if the Thinkamancy rigging, the Dragonmastery and the Decrypted are powers that just use the certain Arkentools as catalyst?

    Why Ansom never attuned to the Pliers, but Wanda did instantly? Could Stanley attune to them just like he did to the Hammer? If so, why Ansom never attuned?

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I propose something similar to D&D's Birthright:

    Quote:
    "As their armies fought on the slopes of the mountain, the gods themselves met in battle. The other gods were only able to defeat Azrai by sacrificing themselves. In a colossal explosion, they destroyed themselves and Azrai. Mount Deismaar and the land bridge were destroyed.

    The power of the gods was not wasted, however. It shot out and entered those present at the battle. The champions of the gods, those closest in ideal and virtue to their patron as well as physical proximity at the time of the cataclysm, received the most power. They became gods themselves, a new pantheon that would replace the old.

    Other combatants also received some of the divine power of the gods. On the battlefield it did not take them long to realize that this power was in their blood, and could be stolen. A scion, as one of the divine blood is called, could have his blood strength stolen if killed by a blow piercing his heart.

    The divine gifts of the scions make them able leaders. They form a connection to their people and land, drawing strength from them. And in times of need returning that strength and perform great deeds. They also can have a variety of other divine powers, such as long life, the ability to detect poison or project a divine aura, depending upon their bloodline strength and the god it was derived from."


    Maybe, Ansom never had the "spark". He could never attune because it was not on his nature to attune.

    Not to say that Wanda and the others are children of the gods in an strict sense, but maybe it is the fruit of some kind of "stack overflow" of Fate

    I here quote the first words of Book 0
    Quote:
    One day in the country of zero, someone paid a price. Somewhere in the great, infinite sheet of balance, a peak rose up.
    Peaceful zeros became ones. Fives. Forty-eights. Agitated hundred-and-twelves. Angry sixty-three-seventy-nines.
    The thousands piled up, far above the plane of equilibrium. The numbers rose as a column, into the millions and billions and more, a silver thread stretching up and away from the peace below.
    This thread was being drawn up by the system of the world. Thinkamancers knew it as a "Grandiocosmic string." Its numbers were being shaped and guided by the firmament, by what magic theorists called the Erf Axis.
    For when the price was paid, it was Erfworld which processed the transaction. The world would produce the unit that was called for...more or less. There was the matter of the Fate Axis as well, and this unit was turning out to be very special. This unit would be worth far more than the buyer had paid for.
    That was no violation of Numbers, though. It simply meant that this unit carried a balance due. And though it was an astronomically high figure, someone would pay.
    Zero always called, and someone would have to pay.


    One day, some time ago, we had a stack overflow that popped Stanley, another that popped Wanda and another that brought Charlie. Maybe one massive that brought all three.

    So... Yeah... Charlie may be a Titan. As Wanda and Stanley. They were chosen by Fate to wield Titanic Power. In a D&D sense, if you wield an unsurmountable power, you are a god.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:21 pm 
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    The Recreator wrote:
    Charlie is far from the omnipotent, omniscient being we usually associate with godhood.

    Trivial quibble, but through most of human history gods weren't conceived of as omnipotent or omniscient (nor in many cases immortal). That's really a relatively recent monotheistic theology thing... and kind of an incoherent combination at that.

    I guess I can't speak for every 'we', but non-religious people don't necessarily jump to the Abrahamic figure when people say 'god' (Hinduism is the third most populous religion, with more than a billion adherents, after all).

    But anyway, Crisco already made the point that Parson and Charlie's misadventures are pretty comparable to the Greek gods mucking about with mortals.

    Om sarve bhavantu sukhinah.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:30 pm 
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    Yajirobe wrote:
    What IS a Titan on Erfworld? Is it someone that created the world? Is a being of unfathomable power? What if a Titan is someone able to wield a power beyond any other power in Erfworld?


    To the Erfworlders, the Titans are the gods. This is why Parson says he's not one. However, I'm of the opinion that the Titans are the people who create and play the games. Erfworld works like a game world because it is a game world, and maybe the pieces have become sapient and developed minds because there is a god stuck in the machine, if you will. Charlie.

    From the standpoint of the Erfworlders, Parson is not a Titan, or at least he doesn't consider himself one. He thinks Charlie may be a Titan, as in a (maybe fallen) god of the setting. Charlie might very well consider Parson, as a creator and player of games, to be a Titan, but not himself.

    Charlie could be a fallen god-Titan, stripped of his powers by the other god-Titans and dropped naked into their created world. Parson is a gamer-Titan, for sure.

    Maybe there's no difference between gamer-Titans and god-Titans. Or... maybe Erfworld exists because a god-Titan started playing games, and got a few other god-Titans together to build a game world... which would make Charlie both a god-Titan and a gamer-Titan, but Parson "just" a gamer-Titan.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:31 pm 
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    I love the unwitting dig at Jillian - [paraphrased] - Any Chief Warlord that's good at their job does not like war. Maybe this bodes well for Albert.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:40 pm 
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    Man, the art quality on this one is just phenomenal. Props for the shading and color work.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:41 pm 
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    Gaussrik wrote:
    More than Parson's answer, I'm intrigued by Don's question.

    Why? Why would you even think that, Don?


    Because he believes he's being tested.

    Belrodes wrote:
    Hrmmm...so Parson is dodging the question about himself and redirecting to Charlie. It's probably a ploy to get questions about Charlie asked, so that he can be built up as some horrible monster that needs to be stopped. The follow-up to "are you a Titan" was probably going to be a demand for what Parson really is, after all, and that line of questioning was never going to lead back to why Don needs to ally against Charlescomm.


    If Don is a good leader, and good at being in control of conversations with subordinates (as I expect he is) then he simply ignores Parson's feint and continues to ask, "If you're not a Titan then what are you?" It doesn't matter what Parson thinks, what matters is what Don wants to say, and what Don wants to know. If he doesn't want to know about Charlie at that point of the conversation it's very simple for him to put the conversation where he wants it.

    Yajirobe wrote:
    So... Yeah... Charlie may be a Titan. As Wanda and Stanley.


    Hmm. Erf, Numbers, Fate. Maybe not Titanic, but ...... the opposites of it? If Charlie cheats Fate (listening in with the Dish to know everything that's happening), and Wanda cheats Numbers (pliers -> decrypted -> no upkeep), then how does Stanley cheat Erf? I don't see Stanley cheating either Fate or Numbers.

    Kurofune wrote:
    Om sarve bhavantu sukhinah.


    Sarve santu nir-aamayaah.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:50 pm 
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    Yajirobe wrote:
    One day, some time ago, we had a stack overflow that popped Stanley, another that popped Wanda and another that brought Charlie. Maybe one massive that brought all three.

    So... Yeah... Charlie may be a Titan. As Wanda and Stanley. They were chosen by Fate to wield Titanic Power. In a D&D sense, if you wield an unsurmountable power, you are a god.


    I don't think Wanda and Stanley are Titans. Charlie is in one sense, Judy Gale and Parson Gotti are in the other sense.

    (Oooo. Charlie as fallen god-Titan. What if the Arkentools are his former godlike power, taken from him and placed into four artifacts. If and when he has all four of them he again becomes a god-Titan. Problem is, if that happens the other god-Titans just smack him down again and take away his toys. Maybe croak him for his troubles, and make sure the Arkentools stay out of the game world. Which is another reason he wants to go to Parson's world.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:06 pm 
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    Parson wrote:
    "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

    Damnit Parson, he was ready to believe you!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:29 pm 
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    This whole Charlie is in effect a Titan talk is making me thinking of Flatland ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland?wprov=sfla1 ).

    A new way of thinking, particularly focused on two dimension versus the dimensions, is the focus of the book. It is written by Edwin Abbott Abbott, theologian and mathematician. Those that resist change are royalty.

    Here is the monarchy of the old ways directly interacting with the change agent, Parson. A Parson is a clergy typically a Protestant i.e. newer way of thinking. The main character, A Square has a variety of interactions with A Sphere (a round 3-d object able to see things that A Square cannot) though ultimately ends in prison. There's more obvious parallels though I recommend reading the book for its unique perspective; I mean that in many different ways.

    The part that really struck me is the royalists inability to see a new way - even though the Arkentools are in 3d - until they undergo a transformation, decryption. I feel the need to reread all the books again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:33 pm 
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    Parson doesn't really think Charlie is a Titan. It's going to turn into some kind of metaphor for what Charlie actually is, I'm sure of it. Maybe cloaking things in metaphor and letting Don fill in the blanks on his own can allow Parson to skirt around the NDA? That'd be clever, if it worked.

    I have no idea HOW this unexpected ploy will end up supporting the goal of making peace with GK's neighboring enemies, but I am eager to see it happen. 8-)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:35 pm 
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    Valareos wrote:
    I think we have to do some meta-thinking about this. The entire world mechanics play very similar to a home brew RPG. I will now go back to thinking of it this way to promote my argument.

    The Titans on Erfworld ARE synonymous with Game Masters, Dungeon Masters, Storytellers, whatever flavor of a game calls the one who controls the overall story. If, instead, Parson had somehow taken HIS players and popped them into HIS world as he was put into Erfworld, Parson would have been indeed a Titan. But in Erfworld, he is a Player (those that fate has an interest in).

    Charlie has gathered enough power and resources and knowledge to be able to control the overall story of Erfworld, effectively making him a titan. This becomes similar to a DnD game where a GM accidentally allows his party to gain near-god or god like status through experience, knowledge, items, or a 50 page pre-written one sentence wish. Normally a GM would say GG you win, start over at this point, but if the players refuse and the game continues, it becomes the Players that control the game.

    THIS is what Parson is alluding to. Charlie has become so powerful, he has taken control of the Game from the Titans and thus made him a Titan himself, and the entire Erfworld was HIS sandbox. True freedom and peace then could only come by bringing control back to the Players that the Titans have reintroduced in an attempt to restart the game.

    Now, looking at the tagline, "No, but I am a Dungeon Master" does help support this. It becomes very similar to being asked "Are you a doctor" and replying with "No, but I play one on TV." Parson may not be a titan, but he is learning how to THINK like a titan.

    I was thinking something similar. When Parson says that he thinks Charlie is a titan (which I'm certain he doesn't mean literally) I'm reminded of the scene in Book 2 where Parson is trapped in Spacerock and being tugged in two different directions by Charlie, and FATE. Notably Parson thinks of them as being practically the same thing. They're both railroading GM's trying to force the world to conform to their whims and he's powerless to resist either of them. I'm reminded of the Digdoug story where Dove goes on about how nothing can ever defeat Charlie and nobody can ever go against him. Charlie has basically made himself into a force of nature and his M.O. is to set up situations so that people are forced to do what he wants whether they like it or not.


    neko wrote:
    I love the unwitting dig at Jillian - [paraphrased] - Any Chief Warlord that's good at their job does not like war. Maybe this bodes well for Albert.

    Heh. Nice catch. :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:05 pm 
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    I read it as Parson switching conversation to Charlie and how he is so powerful that he is threat to all of Erfworld. All the "evidence that Charlie might be a Titan" is really showing Charlie is the biggest threat.

    Parson saying he was a titan would seem like blasphemy, Parson is instead showing Charlie as the blasphemy, the false god.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:00 pm 
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    BanzaiJoe wrote:
    I think some of the posters have touched on my impression already but here goes.

    The number one thing Parson wants to do is make Charlie out to be the enemy to rally around. The question, of course, made him laugh and remember something. Making a supposition draws the questioner to ask more questions. "And why do you think Charlie is a [insert whatever the supposition is]? Now Parson can make Charlie out to be the bogeyman and Parson as the savior. Remember Parson already knows from the Bunny interaction that Don King thinks of Parson as the most vile. He's got to make himself look as less of threat than Charlie.

    Who is more scary and powerful than a warlord with that list of accomplishments? a Titan. In a sense, it was Parson's only play. Let's see if Don bites.


    multilis wrote:
    I read it as Parson switching conversation to Charlie and how he is so powerful that he is threat to all of Erfworld. All the "evidence that Charlie might be a Titan" is really showing Charlie is the biggest threat.

    Parson saying he was a titan would seem like blasphemy, Parson is instead showing Charlie as the blasphemy, the false god.


    I think this is definitely at least a factor in his answer. Recall what Parson said in the meeting after they signed the contract with Charlie:

    Quote:
    The fastest way to lose in a multiplayer game is to look like the biggest threat, the one that everybody agrees to gang up on.


    The question presented a perfect opportunity to downplay his own power and redirect Don's attention to his enemy's.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:37 pm 
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    That Charlie didn't start as a popped unit seems very likely indeed. But a fallen Titan? The truth may lie between those extremes.

    The size of Charlie's treasury as of Book 3-107 might be additional circumstantial evidence to consider. 160M ready shmuckers and several times that amount in gems.

    I'm thinking that perhaps those amounts would require that Charlie creates shms or gems in a novel, perhaps titanic way.

    There seems little likelihood he could have generated that much profit since acquiring the Arkendish - it's taken him this long just to pop 700ish Archons, and I think there is no way his customers had that many shms or gems in aggregate to give to him over time period we know about. Only city treasuries create "new" shms from production, everything else is just a transfer, while shms are removed via upkeep. Even if Charlescomm was the most profitable side in Erf for a long time the total amount he could accumulate would be limited to a small fraction of his income because of upkeep and the fact that his customers must pay him out of their meager profits. And he apparently spends money on his capital like crazy.

    So we are left with 2 possibilities: he's managed to break the economy via clever Carnemancy+Arkendish (something like counterfeiting gems, or hacking the grand Erf ledgers ), or he can simply put any amounts he likes into his books and they work because that is something even an hobbled Titan can do. That he had plenty to cover an attempted invasion of MK seemed highly coincidental to me at the time.

    On the whole, the vast difference between Charlescomm's total value and those of his enemies seems to me to point to something extra-erfworldian about him. He is playing the game with a cheat code enabled.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:46 pm 
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    contrabassist wrote:

    The size of Charlie's treasury as of Book 3-107 might be additional circumstantial evidence to consider. 160M ready shmuckers and several times that amount in gems.

    I'm thinking that perhaps those amounts would require that Charlie creates shms or gems in a novel, perhaps titanic way.


    You're forgetting about the Slots.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:49 pm 
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    neko wrote:
    I love the unwitting dig at Jillian - [paraphrased] - Any Chief Warlord that's good at their job does not like war. Maybe this bodes well for Albert.

    I'm personally hoping that it influences TV's future heir.

    Also, I'm sorely disappointed that there has yet to be a reference to Klingon theology in this thread.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:07 pm 
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    As I understand it:

    Don is asking the question in order to probe Parson's ego and his side's true intentions. If he answered with something along the lines of "Yes" or "No, Stanley is" or "No, Wanda is" then that would be a sign that peace might not be possible.

    Parson is taking it as an opportunity to redirect and talk about how dangerous Charlie is.

    Good plays from both.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:16 pm 
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    Before we all tie ourselves into knots debating what Charlie is, what Parson is, and what Parson thinks Charlie is, let's also acknowledge the down-to-erf significance of Parson's claim.

    Stanley clashed with the RCC about what the truth of Titans' will was. The basic premise they agreed on was that you're morally obliged to do what the Titans want you to.

    By claiming to suspect his archenemy is a Titan no matter whether that is true or whether he actually believes it, Parson is placing himself above and outside that squabble. He's trying to escape the beef Don has with Stanley. That may make him a madman in Don's eyes, but a madman with his own orthogonal agenda, and potentially one who can be reasoned with and/or manipulated. That's a better thing for Parson to be than the unbeatable trump card of the Toolists.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 177
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:25 pm 
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    So, unless the Narrator is unreliable, the Titans are giant Elvis impersonators.
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/1
    Not really Charlie's thing.
    .
    .
    .
    Also, I was this close to making that Ghostbusters joke in the conclusion of Deus Erf Machina, but decided not to. Which reminds me, I need to finish that up and get it posted.

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