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 Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:05 pm 
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Here's a version I've been working on.
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Warchalking is at most 4 turns away from Gobwin Knob for a column with minimum 18 move (assuming road means no penalty).
Faq is West of Gobwin Knob. Unaroyal is North of Faq. Jetstone borders Unaroyal, but not Gobwin Knob; therefore it has to be somewhere West and/or North of Unaroyal. Haggar is presumably further removed from the conflict. Transylvito is south of Faq, and East of the Carpudlians.

Edit: Shoot, it does say troops marched East of Drhystone towards Pantstown in Haggar, doesn't it? I think I can swing things around a little so that can work.

2nd Edit: Alright, new revision. From Drhystone, troops marched East, recaptured Pantstown, crossed the River Phoenix and captured Toughskin and Oshkosh (which I decided is on the shores of Lake Winnebago) before going on to siege Sansabelt.


Last edited by DorianMode on Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:44 pm 
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    It looks cool, but I wouldn't spend too much energy on terrain when we still have so much that's unknown.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:03 pm 
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    and it appears to be rotated 90 degree's from what it should be sorry

    all of the data from 40, indicates there is a east and west cardinal, in a hex grid there is two missing cardinals. the missing one can be simulated but would lead to poor pathfinding and incorrect destination arrivals. if you have referneces including the words north and south. then erfworld can't possibly have a map.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:09 pm 
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    Nonsense. We've seen erfworld does have maps; very pretty ones in the battle command center. And yet, both north/south and east/west are used:

    "In a nutshell? Talk to me." said Charlie quietly. "Look, Your Highness...no Royal side west or south of me will even take my calls, let alone hire me."

    For that matter, we know that hex coordinates are given in X/Y notation. X/Y isn't quite as pretty with hexes as it is with squares, but it's certainly not impossible. You just need a standard convention as to whether the offset hexes are considered to shift left or right.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:57 pm 
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    we've seen smaller maps, it's possible these have not been made accurately, just artistically. it boils down to whether jamie knows a hex is a six sided shape and what that means for orientation.

    or if rob considered positions that way. but if you only have 6 possible directions to move in there is no point having eight cardinal directions. or four.

    ie, if something is sort of east of your current hex in that map, you can either zigzag there every hex or just walk north east for half the distance then walk south east to arrive. in that map you can never walk to the east. in the one i posted you can never head due north or south. we can describe things that way BUT they would never have developed such a concept.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:56 pm 
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    The existence of hex barriers doesn't necessarily mean that one can't move in one direction or another. I would assume that Erfworlders would move as indicated by the red paths, not by the blue paths.
    Image

    In the simple examples above, each path crosses the same number of hexes.

    Though, I suppose, some "straight line" paths could potentially result in crossing into using up extra "move." This would mean that some slight adjustments would be needed to avoid this waste.

    EDIT: In this slightly more complicated example, each path uses the same amount of move as its alternate:
    Image

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    Last edited by DevilDan on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:00 pm 
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    DorianMode wrote:
    Here's a version I've been working on.
    Image

    Warchalking is at most 4 turns away from Gobwin Knob for a column with minimum 18 move (assuming road means no penalty).
    Faq is West of Gobwin Knob. Unaroyal is North of Faq. Jetstone borders Unaroyal, but not Gobwin Knob; therefore it has to be somewhere West and/or North of Unaroyal. Haggar is presumably further removed from the conflict. Transylvito is south of Faq, and East of the Carpudlians.

    Edit: Shoot, it does say troops marched East of Drhystone towards Pantstown in Haggar, doesn't it? I think I can swing things around a little so that can work.


    This is excellent. Could you resize it? it seems to be losing at the edges.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:26 am 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    The existence of hex barriers doesn't necessarily mean that one can't move in one direction or another. I would assume that Erfworlders would move as indicated by the red paths, not by the blue paths.In the simple examples above, each path crosses the same number of hexes.
    Though, I suppose, some "straight line" paths could potentially result in crossing into using up extra "move." This would mean that some slight adjustments would be needed to avoid this waste.
    EDIT: In this slightly more complicated example, each path uses the same amount of move as its alternate:

    your wrapping earth designs into erfworld again. they have a physically enforced six cardinal directions. we never had such a limitation. at some point in our history it was decided to make maps with squared edges. the top of the map was always north, so by design you had 3 other obvious directions. you couldn't name them up down left and right. that's just going to confuse the issue.

    erfworld IS hexes. literal physically enforced hexes. i'm sure that given the story refers to compass points already, they must use the compass naming to some extent. but if you can only physically travel in six global directions, you will never even use the naming for those two missing directions. it's not functionally possible to travel in that direction. you can smooth the path but you still changing directions every other move.

    firstly look at your white example. your top line works, but if the instruction is 3 hexes east, and you exit the first hex from the wrong edge, it costs an aditional move in correction. thus no-one would ever issue the "move 3 hexes east" command. it's co-ordinates or more accurate instructions of northeast/southeast.

    your second example has a third path as well due south(2) then southeast(1) to end move, your examples all assume mountains don't exist between two points as well. once again requiring detailled circumnavigation commands to be issued.

    the blue example you've highlighted the other problem, now the command north and south are irrelevant. the grid co-ordinates system is all well and good for smaller maps but will quickly degenerate over larger scales, especially in cases of multi scale maps. ie a larger global map that refernces smaller maps. in this case i believe hexagonal mapping would make more sense and possible a 3 value co-ordinate system but i haven't got the time to speculate how that could work. conversely a diagonal 2 digit co-ordiante system has no such offset issues your example suffers.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:04 am 
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    ok, best theory I'VE come up with to handle larger scale maps, grid systems and consistency.

    nested hexmaps
    Image
    my example uses a 20 grid, using the diagonal method i've just mentioned. HOWEVER, i would recomend a ten grid 0-5-9. the points within this hex belong to another grid one scale level larger to handle larger moves. to speed up commincations of movement you would only need to mention levels relevant to the move.

    to prevent confusion you may implement an alphanumeric switching order.

    ie hex A,C/5,0 - D,C/2,6

    convercely you could use the battleships type A5/C,0 - D,2/C,6

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:57 am 
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    Ferrous wrote:
    This is excellent. Could you resize it? it seems to be losing at the edges.


    Yeah, I did a couple versions that kept having an inch or so cut off the right side; I'll make a smaller version when I correct the Jetsone/Haggar/River Phoenix region today.

    And about cardinal directions: the story, at the macroscopic scale we're working here at least, references the same directions we're familiar with, not a set specific to a hex system. As long as the map is two-dimensional (in a Euclidean or non-Euclidean fashion, it is sensible that on the whole they be described with two linear axes.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:53 am 
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    moose o death wrote:
    your wrapping earth designs into erfworld again. they have a physically enforced six cardinal directions. we never had such a limitation. at some point in our history it was decided to make maps with squared edges. the top of the map was always north, so by design you had 3 other obvious directions. you couldn't name them up down left and right. that's just going to confuse the issue.


    What I'm doing is trying to avoid thinking of hexes as squares on a chessboard. Even if only to avoid boredom, units would take paths that are closer to my straight lines. I think those paths are what Erfworlders would take: it's not as if they need to go through the center of each hex...

    moose o death wrote:
    erfworld IS hexes. literal physically enforced hexes. i'm sure that given the story refers to compass points already, they must use the compass naming to some extent. but if you can only physically travel in six global directions, you will never even use the naming for those two missing directions. it's not functionally possible to travel in that direction. you can smooth the path but you still changing directions every other move.


    Well, at least we're not arguing about whether the concepts of all eight cardinal directions (or 16 or whatever) is not alien to Erf. All could be used unless specific individual, short-range movements are being discussed. And in that case, why not use the coordinate system?

    moose o death wrote:
    firstly look at your white example. your top line works, but if the instruction is 3 hexes east, and you exit the first hex from the wrong edge, it costs an aditional move in correction. thus no-one would ever issue the "move 3 hexes east" command. it's co-ordinates or more accurate instructions of northeast/southeast.


    Fine, then "three hexes east" is confusing. It's still pretty understandable to say two, four, or six hexes east. Erfworlders are popped knowing the system and how to communicate related concepts clearly: just because it's a bit odd or confusing to us doesn't mean that they don't do it as naturally as we think of concepts like up, down, left, and right. Actually, since they're popped with that knowledge, it's even more natural to them than that.

    moose o death wrote:
    your second example has a third path as well due south(2) then southeast(1) to end move, your examples all assume mountains don't exist between two points as well. once again requiring detailled circumnavigation commands to be issued.


    Actually, I consider the need for circumnavigation to avoid high-move-cost terrain like mountains or high mountains to be a point in my favor. If Erf units are used to adjusting their path based on the types of hexes, then they can certainly make minute adjustments needed to make sure that "straight line" paths aren't resulting in increased move costs.

    moose o death wrote:
    the blue example you've highlighted the other problem, now the command north and south are irrelevant. the grid co-ordinates system is all well and good for smaller maps but will quickly degenerate over larger scales, especially in cases of multi scale maps. ie a larger global map that refernces smaller maps. in this case i believe hexagonal mapping would make more sense and possible a 3 value co-ordinate system but i haven't got the time to speculate how that could work. conversely a diagonal 2 digit co-ordiante system has no such offset issues your example suffers.


    Firstly, I again want to point out that what we find confusing is crystal clear to Erfworlders. Look at the command that Charlie gave the Archons: "I need you to proceed to X: -1218, Y: 467 to provide escort to three commanders and their entourage." Arguably, the mention of Jetstone and the Great Western Conflict would help them, but at the very least it gives us a strong hint of how it's not a terribly complicated system from their perspective. For all we know they have absolutely innate dead reckoning and perfect sense of direction: everybody knows exactly what hex they're on at all times and the approximate path to take to get to a different hex is equally intuitive to them.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:27 pm 
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    I think a lot of these arguments (on both sides) are too nitpicky for a world that includes psychic 'subvocalization' as part of command-giving. While a warlord might say "Go three hexes east" to formulate the command, in his head, he's thinking of the exact hex he wants the unit to go to. Unit leaves out the proper boundary, heads three hexes east. It's magic!

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:27 pm 
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    Image

    Why not travel along the black lines to get true North/South and East/West? Nothing says you must pass the center of the hex. (As opposed to most games where one hex is about the same size as one unit/piece)

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:40 pm 
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    you know, I'd find this exercise fascinating if I thought Rob Balder had really conferred with Jamie N. on the map. I suspect this hasn't happened, but you never know. Love to see how this looks.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:55 pm 
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    DorianMode wrote:
    Image

    I am shamelessly stealing that map for the Wiki. Do you have a bigger one or one with more speculation? Also, you gotta PM Rob, see what kind of thought he's put into Erfworld geography. I'd bet money he won't hand over a totally canon world map but perhaps he's got some insight that will help with yours. BTW, are you sure that the lake from the Siege Raids is only three hexes?

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:09 pm 
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    I've seen several hex grids labeled with coordinates. the system some proposed with the "diagonal" markings works, but is not preffered for marking north south. wish i had any skill with computers to draw this...

    But a typical labeled hex grid is like the first one Devildan posted with the lines. the east/west labeling is easy... they are straight.

    The north south is generally "staggered" meaning it follows a pattern like the top line he drew. This means that at edges of the map, you either get "half" hexes, which count as hexes for labeling, or "blanks" meaning that the "edge" rows only have even or odd (can be different at each edge) coordinates.

    this is only slightly complicated if the map wraps. some systems then ALWAYS include half hexes... and the half hexes are given the coordinates the same as the full hex on the other side. To make this work best, the half hexes on the top would be all evens, and the ones on the bottom, all odds.

    Not saying this is how its done, but this is how the hex grid i bought for my own gaming is labeled.

    moose o death wrote:
    keep in mind on average your looking at over two hundred hexes between cities. this map of erfworld is in actual fact larger than earth the way things are going.

    secondly, have you established if a city occupies multiple hexes?

    we now know that the steepness of a mountain hex multiplies the move taken to cross it. mild is +1 steep is +2 and sheer is +3, and this is for a flying mount. it's probably double for infantry. so this will skew your distances considerably we don't know about the mountain ranges that exist with exception for the minty mountains.

    lastly hex's don't divide evenly but triangles do, and you can easily make hexes from triangles. if i get time i'll look into making some 3d stuff. my new video card leaks memory if i run XSi for too long.


    Thought I'd mention that it says nothing about the size of the world, since we have no idea how big a hex is in relation to the world... maybe a hex represents only half a mile? a football field in length? We don't know.

    As regards to a city taking multiple hexes... we don't know. we DO know they COUNT as one hex for movement purposes, but they could take up a larger than 1 hex space on the map.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:26 pm 
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    East is where the sun rises
    West is where it sets

    North is where the polar star is.
    South is the direction opposite to north.

    All these definitions can still apply in a hex-based land.

    Heck Jillian even says east top side!

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:56 pm 
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    Do we have any concrete evidence that Warchalking is directly east of Gobwin Knob?

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:34 pm 
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    DorianMode wrote:
    Here's a version I've been working on.
    Image

    Warchalking is at most 4 turns away from Gobwin Knob for a column with minimum 18 move (assuming road means no penalty).
    Faq is West of Gobwin Knob. Unaroyal is North of Faq. Jetstone borders Unaroyal, but not Gobwin Knob; therefore it has to be somewhere West and/or North of Unaroyal. Haggar is presumably further removed from the conflict. Transylvito is south of Faq, and East of the Carpudlians.

    Edit: Shoot, it does say troops marched East of Drhystone towards Pantstown in Haggar, doesn't it? I think I can swing things around a little so that can work.

    2nd Edit: Alright, new revision. From Drhystone, troops marched East, recaptured Pantstown, crossed the River Phoenix and captured Toughskin and Oshkosh (which I decided is on the shores of Lake Winnebago) before going on to siege Sansabelt.


    Hate to rain on your parade, but if the Unaroyal capital was the next city on the road past Warchalking, it would be very strange for Wanda & Ansom to hit that city last while conquering Unaroyal. A quick decapitating strike would freeze the other cities and disband field units, making the conquest much easier. Of Unaroyal's cities, that one should be the farthest from Gobwin Knob's reach.

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     Post subject: Re: Map of Erfworld
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:00 am 
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    sheepfly wrote:
    Hate to rain on your parade, but if the Unaroyal capital was the next city on the road past Warchalking, it would be very strange for Wanda & Ansom to hit that city last while conquering Unaroyal. A quick decapitating strike would freeze the other cities and disband field units, making the conquest much easier. Of Unaroyal's cities, that one should be the farthest from Gobwin Knob's reach.

    No need to rain on parades, the map was made with the best information available at the time. The events at Unaroyal weren't relayed to us until almost a week after this map was posted.

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