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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:28 am 
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Posbrake might as well have said "Nothing can go wrong." :D

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:33 am 
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    twhitt wrote:
    Tinfoil hat time.
    1) Charlie makes the decapitation strike, losing the penalty clause but gaining the bounty; Charlie is net positive.
    2) Homekey the side is ended; Dove's contract with Homekey is ended.
    3) The city of Homekey is host to parties with many varied allegiances:
    3a) Former units of Homekey, which are probably not frozen due to active combat;
    3b) Units of Delkey, which are almost definitely not frozen;
    3c) Charlie;
    3d) Any support force from Numlock;
    3e) Dove.
    4) Barbarian commanders can capture cities, including capturing a capital site and the treasury thereof.
    Therefore...
    5) Archons and Dove eliminate remaining defenders, Charlie evacuates, and Dove claims the city and the treasury.

    All the contracts are met or ended, no one violated their principles, and the two Carnymancers make out like bandits at the expense of every other unit and side.

    /Tinfoil


    And that's Carnymancer way!

    My thinking is among similar lines. Charlie needs to kill 300 units before his contract goes negative. Contract may be ironclad, but Charlie is ultimate rules lawyer! No side, no penalty. Kill the king, and there's no side you have to pay penalty to, because I doubt that Posbrake said "If Homekey doesn't exist, pay it all to Delkey" in the contract. So, Posbrake is a dead man walking. How are they going to croak him? I can think of few ways.

    a) Aforementioned "Tower goes down" gambit - tower falls, king dies
    b) Just push Posbrake of a tower with melee attacks. Can archons carry regular units in their hands? Can they carry boulders? Basically, Parson's Food Fight gambit.
    c) Make a hole in the tower then use Foolamancy to make it seem it is not there. Or just make it look like the tower is wider than it is. Then, bam, king slips everybody dies.
    d) Pull a GobwinKnob-on-Awesomer gambit and just snatch the king. Let him drop from the airspace.
    e) Chuck a huge flying object from a huge distance on the tower, like a giant, ball-shaped rock. If it falls on the tower then rolls over the king, it doesn't count as ranged attack. Or if something, like a wooden beam, gets torn of the tower and falls on him. Or if the king is set on fire, by "accidental" dropping of a dozen bowls of tar all around him and a single torch.
    f) Break/suspend a few rules for one turn. Give all the units in the tower a sudden flying special. Then end it. See d) for effects.

    And the beauty of it is that we have seen almost all of those things happen at least once in the comic.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:43 am 
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    Whether Charlie ruins Posbrake's plan pretty much depends on how willing he is to reveal that he's a Carnymancer and how likely he is able to get away with it without anyone (still alive) knowing.

    EDIT: Or he could just cut into his profits, I guess. It doesn't seem like something Charlie would want to do though. (I haven't done the math here. What's the point where Charlie would end up making less than he'd get from sticking to the contract?)

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    Last edited by Tathar on Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:43 am 
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    The plot of this story is essentially a train wreck in very slow motion in which the fat controller reckons that by going faster he can make it to the points before the oncoming obstacle does and so avoid the inevitable . And we don't know if certain crew members are working to avert the crash or expect to profit from it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:14 am 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    f) Break/suspend a few rules for one turn. Give all the units in the tower a sudden flying special. Then end it. See d) for effects.
    We've been told that that's something you do with weirdamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:39 am 
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    Aquillion wrote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    f) Break/suspend a few rules for one turn. Give all the units in the tower a sudden flying special. Then end it. See d) for effects.
    We've been told that that's something you do with weirdamancy.

    Yes I have been wondering about the difference. It seems Weirdomancy is more about the properties of units whereas carneymancy is more about the rules between units. But that seems a pretty flimsey distinction.

    Edit:

    For example both a weirdomancer and a carneymancer can probably make it so that a particular unit does not take falling damage for that turn. Perhaps even a shockamancer can do that seeing as falling damage is natural shockamancy. That seems a lot of overlap for three disciplines.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:52 pm 
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    Oh just grab him and kill him nest turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:57 pm 
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    Tathar wrote:
    (I haven't done the math here. What's the point where Charlie would end up making less than he'd get from sticking to the contract?)

    We can't do the math without knowing how much Homekey is paying Charlie. Assuming there are no hidden contracts with contingencies for greater pay for increased risk to Charlie, if Homekey is paying Charlie at least 170k Schmuckers then any units killed by Charlie would make slaying a Homekey unit less profitable than keeping Homekey units safe.

    Also, in response to the idea of a second attack next turn, part of the contract is that Charlie's troops must "withdraw." Why is everyone assuming this wouldn't be withdrawing to outside of Homekey's territory altogether?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:06 pm 
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    Although there's no way this is going to go how Posbrake expects, and that last line of his is delicious knowing what the audience does about Charlie, I don't personally expect this to go poorly for Homekey. Dove seems truthful enough when she says she's fond of Posbrake, and beyond just their nighttime activities, Posbrake is unique in actually being a ruler that's willing to hire a carnymancer. Assuming that there's any amount of solidarity between carnymancers at all, which I'd say we've seen ample enough evidence to believe, both in the casters in general organize in the magic kingdom and between the carnymancers themselves when Parson was on his way to Jetstone, I don't think Charlie will risk making the reputation of carnymancers worse than it already seems to be. He seems to have a position of strength and respect among carnymancers which working against other carnymancers would jeopardize. For that reason I think whether this will go badly for Homekey relies on what Dove's motivations are, and while she could still prove to be treacherous I suppose, I personally don't think she will.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:27 pm 
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    That's a good point. While Charlie and Dove certainly are in a position to screw over Homekey if they want, why would they? They get paid either way. If they get Homekey to survive, they'll have a potential repeat customer, and a boost in reputation.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:24 am 
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    asparagus wrote:
    Aquillion wrote:
    youngstormlord wrote:
    f) Break/suspend a few rules for one turn. Give all the units in the tower a sudden flying special. Then end it. See d) for effects.
    We've been told that that's something you do with weirdamancy.

    Yes I have been wondering about the difference. It seems Weirdomancy is more about the properties of units whereas carneymancy is more about the rules between units. But that seems a pretty flimsey distinction.

    Edit:

    For example both a weirdomancer and a carneymancer can probably make it so that a particular unit does not take falling damage for that turn. Perhaps even a shockamancer can do that seeing as falling damage is natural shockamancy. That seems a lot of overlap for three disciplines.


    Different schools of magic can sometimes solve the same problem, but there seems to be a pretty clear distinction between Weirdomancy and Carnymancy.

    One lets you change the rules. The other lets you buff or nerf units by changing their special abilities. "Doesn't take falling damage this turn" and "Can fly this turn" are pretty different. The former lets you avoid getting croaked by falling, the latter lets you soar through the air and get all up in enemy flyers' business.

    Could a carnymancer make a rule like "This unit can fly despite not having the flying special?" Eh...I don't know. That might be too big a rule change for them, or require way more juice than the weirdomancer's method. I suspect that ignoring a rule is probably easier than inventing an entirely new one. When you're playing monopoly it's easier to "forget" to pay the banker, rather than stealing money from the bank and hoping the other players don't notice.

    Also, both schools could potentially do a lot more we haven't seen too.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:12 am 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    Could a carnymancer make a rule like "This unit can fly despite not having the flying special?" Eh...I don't know.
    I'm going to guess that Carnymancy can't do that. It seems to go against the style of Carnymancy as I understand it. Carnymancy seems to be about trickery. When a Carnymancer puts on a show, it seems to mean giving people something false to look at rather than a spectacular display of power. Remember how Sylvia avoided getting shot in Spacerock? It wasn't a magical force-field that blocked the arrow, and I don't expect a force-field to protect Posbrake. Posbrake would be protected by something that seems accidental but is actually Carnymancy putting on a show. My point is that there's no way to make a unit fly without being obviously magical, and that's not the sort of subtlety that I've come to expect from Carnymancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:18 am 
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    With all this carneymancy carneying around carnely I think we are missing something. The hero of the story is a dirtamancer. So he is probably going to end up shacked up with Dove - dirtily carnal or perhaps carnally dirty. That alone means Posbrake is probably doomed but Dove will be loyal though suspected of treachery. And the dirtamancer is going to through a large pile of crap at his enemies.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:31 am 
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    That's what I was betting on (literally) but I'm not confident it will be carnal. He might just save the day.

    He certainly needs to end up doing something major.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:49 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    That's what I was betting on (literally) but I'm not confident it will be carnal. He might just save the day.

    He certainly needs to end up doing something major.



    Maybe Dove could suspend the rule that buildings cannot be golems. And then Digdoug can turn the tower into a building golem. Sounds a bit too similar to uncroaking a volcano though.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:06 pm 
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    I think everything will turn out ok for Homekey.

    Think about it this way, with this attack, Homekey's units will all be "busy" and distracted, and Delkey will notice and possibly send reinforcements. ( Either to help or take back the fallen city/treasury)

    So while all this is happening, perhaps Delkey is the real target and we can see the mother side of Homekey being destroyed and wiped out by Homekey's dabbing with fate.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:11 pm 
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    So what I'm hearing is that all Charlie has to do is to pay Dove to stab Posbrake in the back herself, and he won't have broken the contract. Also, he could pull a Merchant of Venice and say that as soon as a single Homekey unit strikes for 2HP damage instead of 1HP, they have broken the contract and Charlie is no longer bound by it.

    I have no doubt that Charlie will stick very closely to the terms of the contract, but as a Carnymancer you just KNOW he's going to twist it somehow to mean what he wants it to mean. Posbrake has been informed of his fate and, as Wanda would suggest, isn't fighting it. But as Wanda has said, Fate only ever gives two options - the easy way and the hard way. And if someone tries to choose the VERY easy way...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:19 pm 
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    Dox wrote:
    So what I'm hearing is that all Charlie has to do is to pay Dove to stab Posbrake in the back herself, and he won't have broken the contract.
    I seriously doubt that Dove is going to personally kill Posbrake. Ending the side would surely close the portal to the Magic Kingdom which would cut off Dove's escape route, plus there's no reason for Charlie to get the bounty if Dove does the killing. On the other hand, it's possible that Dove has an arrangement with Charlie for a ride back to the Magic Kingdom, and I'm sure that would be a very expensive taxi.

    Dox wrote:
    Also, he could pull a Merchant of Venice and say that as soon as a single Homekey unit strikes for 2HP damage instead of 1HP, they have broken the contract and Charlie is no longer bound by it.
    I can't believe that Posbrake would agree to a contract that works that way. We've already seen them talking about penalties for each unit killed, so surely Posbrake would just pay a penalty for killing any archons who happen to accidentally die in the battle.

    Dox wrote:
    I have no doubt that Charlie will stick very closely to the terms of the contract, but as a Carnymancer you just KNOW he's going to twist it somehow to mean what he wants it to mean.
    That would mean that this becomes a story about lawyering, and that seems unlikely. If the exact wording of the contract was going to be important to the story then I'm fairly sure we would have been shown the exact wording of the contract, just like in B0E81.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:50 pm 
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    Plus they've said its "ironclad". There are no loopholes. A bunch of experts look at the contract and declare it good and don't get to see it? It better damn well be good in the areas they are focusing on. If there is some tricky wording that allows for clever foolamancy, or something I call foul.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 12
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:45 am 
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    We don't have the bigger picture, imo anything can still happen here, including all sides except Charlie lose in some way but still thank him.

    Charlie may want the war to go on, and everyone to keep hiring him in future turns. He may actually make more long term profit if Posbrake lives. As well, Posbrake asking to cheat fate and *wants* to hire carnymancers... that probably makes Charlie *want* Posbrake to win. The Carnymancers will scam him of course but that doesn't mean he isn't their favourite customer/sucker.

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