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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:54 am 
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Godzfirefly wrote:
Morni wrote:
A carnymancer can use their juice without "casting", but they must touch the target.

I notice that when a Carnymancer is trying to convince someone, they like to touch people.

in the last few update with Dove, I've notice she likes to touch/rub.


That is actually a common psychiatrist/conman trick in our real world. It fools the brain into being more receptive to what is being said. So, in Erfworld, that would probably be referred to as Natural Carnymancy.


I agree but if it's a conman trick, adding juice would make it even better.

i was just re-reading the last update.. had a bit of time to kill

Quote:
Dove patted Digdoug’s thigh and gave him a look that was somehow both serious and joyful. “Your King is a beautiful man,” she said, “with a beautiful story. He respects my discipline, and yours, too. You know how rare that is? I hope you do.” Digdoug blinked at her, and nodded. “Yeah, I’m here to get paid. You always get paid; that’s a code of Carnymancy. But my intentions are good. If you don’t believe anything else I tell you, believe that. I’m here to help you.”

Digdoug believed it. More than anything else, he just hoped she would stick around for a while. Having a caster friend was all kinds of nice. “Would you ever...want to join us? Join Homekey?” he asked.


Dove touch Digdoug, tells something, and Digdoug believes it :)

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:49 pm 
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    Something that has been bugging me since we learned about Doves upkeep is that it is so low say in comparison to an Archon. I would imagine and hope that a caster is a more powerful unit than an Archon as you can pop Archon's on a frequent basis (if they're a unit you can produce) and have often been compared to Dwagons in terms of power and utility.

    So is her low upkeep because Dove is currently a low level Carnymancer? Has she managed to convince Digdoug and co she knows what she is talking about when she has a more tenuous grasp of the situation than she would let on? Rather than Dove being malicious and have the intent to betray her employer she could potentially manage it by simply not understanding enough about magic and her discipline to correctly avert or trick the prediction.

    We have never seen a prediction happen purely because a prediction said it would be so, there has always been external factors that the predictamancer simply observed. Charlie attacking is a direct result of the prediction being made rather than external factors i.e. being hired by another side.

    So what happens if they do fend off Charlie's attack? Does another air assault happen a few turns later they are woefully unprepared for?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:31 pm 
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    CDS wrote:
    So is her low upkeep because Dove is currently a low level Carnymancer?...

    Perhaps she has spent juice to lower her upkeep, perhaps barbarian caster in magic kingdom gets discount, perhaps yes she is low level.

    CDS wrote:
    We have never seen a prediction happen purely because a prediction said it would be so, there has always been external factors that the predictamancer simply observed. Charlie attacking is a direct result of the prediction being made rather than external factors i.e. being hired by another side.

    So what happens if they do fend off Charlie's attack? Does another air assault happen a few turns later they are woefully unprepared for?

    Perhaps Charlie was hired to attack before prediction was made by another side (and charlie is simply double dipping), perhaps yes another attack would come, perhaps Posbrake is part of a scam... he might know which side is going to attack him (eg Numlock), and fears a spy in his own ranks, so this is trick to win.

    If Posbrake has nothing extra as secret, then this whole play seems stupid of him which suggests magic boosted manipulation of him. (For reason you state, original attack may still happen and he is weaker as result)

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:55 pm 
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    My bet is on Dove being exactly what she claims to be. That is, a caster who's just happy to be getting some respect and a decent 3 hot's and a cot for once.
    With so much setup about how she could be playing Homekey, it seems unlikely that she actually is (it would be a dull story if everything were exactly as it seems, and Dove certainly seems to be pulling one over on Homekey).

    With regards to the "secret of carnymancy" It's probably something like "you can't con an honest man".

    Scams of the sort that carnymancy emulates usually rely on the mark thinking they're coning you. Either you set up a game that looks easy with fabulous prizes when really the game is rigged so the mark will loose (relying on the mark thinking they can win more value than they put in), or you present a business deal that gives the mark the chance to run away with your money... only before they get the chance they have to put some of their own money up to cover expenses and such (relying on the mark's greed and intent to scam you to get them to overlook the opportunity you have to run away with their startup cash). Try either of those on someone who isn't trying to cheat you and they don't really work.

    Dove can't beguile the king with carnymancy because he's not stupid enough to try to con a carny. She could cook the books with carnymancy because the moneymaker was trying to unravel Homekey's (assumed) elaborate deception regarding the state of their finances which gives Dove an opening to use his expectations and desire to "win" to her advantage.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:13 pm 
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    Charlie certainly could be pulling a fast one there is certainly logic behind it in the sense that Charlie is a deceptive puppet master. It just strikes me as a attributing far too much to the man in that it requires a lot of speculation and new elements of the story would need to be introduced and explained to justify it being Charlie. I mean it could certainly be the case that Charlie is behind it but Delkey or Homekey doesn't strike me as enough of a target to really attract Charlie's attention when he is subtly undermining and making the various super powers of Erfworld dance to his tune.

    It also strikes me as ironic that we have heard multiple times in the story of Digdoug being annoyed that everyone assumes he knows things about magic because of his caster status. He then blunders into the Magic Kingdom stumbles upon a Carnymancer doesn't think to check her credentials and then presents her to the court as an authority.

    Either way I would like Dove to be an authority on Carnymancy because I would really like to know more about it as the main antagonist in the main story is one. I just suspect that Dove has just got really lucky and is milking it for all its worth rather than some complex xanatos gambit which involves the co-operation of various people that have currently been shown to have no-affiliation with each other.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:56 pm 
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    In theatre, we have a common term called the "Suspension of disbelief". It is that for the time of the performance, the audience, fully knowing that what they are looking at is fake, decides to suspend that disbelief and buy in to what's going on.

    In real life, that's what carnys manipulate. They speak or do things in such a way that you will willingly suspend your disbelief.
    - One carny pulled me into a game because he promised to give me a second chance at failure. I chose to suspend my disbelief because my 0% chance was doubled.
    - One fun house girl said she would break the rules and show me the trick to appear as just a floating head. She said that I was special because I was too mature to really believe. In this instance, I chose to believe that I was different.
    - Don't even get me started with card tricks...

    So, Psychology is a real-life carny's game. It's their ability to call a stone a lemon and make you choose to believe it's a lemon.
    That's likely their connection to Signamancy. They can see the Signs, and they can make you think the Signs say things that they don't.

    That still doesn't explain how Jojo "made a trade" for Sylvia unless he tricked the death gods into thinking something else was Sylvia...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:36 pm 
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    He may have made the trade with Charlie. Also note the comment about the luckamancy repayment in book 2? Presumably Fate used luckamancy to protect Red and ensured she died in a fire. She dies, others live.

    It occurs to me that Digdoug might still want to visit the MK even if he thinks the carnymancer is good. She's... distracting. And he doesn't want to hurt her feelings. He can come in through the portals backside.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:11 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    It may not be Rob that Charlie is fighting, but it may definitely be a Tron situation where the Charlie is rebelling against his creators. Like, he's seeing into Stupid World, but not our world. Because Erf and Stupid World are undeniably linked in some way.

    I believe stupid world is our world. Hamstard's site was launched to coincide with the happenings of Parson.

    Lipkin wrote:
    So Sylvia was meant to die, but Jojo went off script and decided to save her. It shouldn't be possible, but the rest of the characters went with it, because it would ruin the show if they didn't.


    Could also be that there is some other force the carny is tricking, death, the titan's etc. Maybe every turn he had to trick whatever claims dying units that Sylvia wasn't dying until she could get back to where she wasn't well dying.

    Ambug666 wrote:
    I've been suspicious of Dove ever since she was "coincidentally" the first caster Doug ran into in the MK.

    I'm just not sure who she's really working for: an outside force to take the side down, or herself to become the power behind the throne. I'm leaning toward outside force, since that possibility has not been mentioned in the story while the other one has.


    The answer is Charlie. The answer is always Charlie. Learn it, live it, be uncomfortable while people tell you about their sex with it.

    Know the scope of Charlie, hiring a predictamancer isn't bad, it's bad because Charlie makes it so. Every time it's done someone naturally gets a carny to avert their ill destiny and that's where Charlie comes in.

    P.S. This is meant to sound insane and ridiculous, did I succeed?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:23 pm 
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    CDS wrote:
    Something that has been bugging me since we learned about Doves upkeep is that it is so low say in comparison to an Archon. I would imagine and hope that a caster is a more powerful unit than an Archon as you can pop Archon's on a frequent basis (if they're a unit you can produce) and have often been compared to Dwagons in terms of power and utility.

    So is her low upkeep because Dove is currently a low level Carnymancer? Has she managed to convince Digdoug and co she knows what she is talking about when she has a more tenuous grasp of the situation than she would let on? Rather than Dove being malicious and have the intent to betray her employer she could potentially manage it by simply not understanding enough about magic and her discipline to correctly avert or trick the prediction.

    We have never seen a prediction happen purely because a prediction said it would be so, there has always been external factors that the predictamancer simply observed. Charlie attacking is a direct result of the prediction being made rather than external factors i.e. being hired by another side.

    So what happens if they do fend off Charlie's attack? Does another air assault happen a few turns later they are woefully unprepared for?


    I can believe that archons have insanely high upkeep. They're flying units with high attack power that can cast spells in multiple disciplines. Even though they look like petite women, it's better to think of them as another top tier unit like dwagons that by themselves are worth numerous lesser units.

    Also, high upkeep might be a downside for a magic user you can pop at will. A caster is basically a lucky bonus that randomly occurs when you try to pop a warlord. So it's ok if casters are better than their upkeep suggests, since getting one is the equivalent of winning a lottery. Archons might need a more balanced ratio between unit value and upkeep.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:17 pm 
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    While casters could have very low upkeep costs and Archons could have very high upkeep costs one of the things I took from the update where it explained the costs of Archons is that more power = more cost. The same seems to go for the Eldritch Abomination that is our protagonist Mr Gotti he is so expensive due to being 'special'. Although as he is such a unique case in Erfworld he isn't the best example to support an argument but as far as I am aware we don't have any other unit costs.

    Now in fairness until we see more examples of relative cost of units it is all simple speculation. Archons could have a higher cost because they are mass-producible much like Dwagons are. My only contention with this would be that if casters had universally cheap upkeep then the prices they charged for their services would still be relatively cheap in comparison to top end units.

    I would have expected to see more barbarian casters being hired by the sides we have seen in the stories and only the Thinkamancer hired by Unaroyal during the first RCC is mentioned so far which seems odd considering how useful they are even in a passive boosting capacity.

    I just took the low upkeep to be an indication the unit was of a low level as it puts a different perspective on the advice Dove is giving. She is simply conning them about the worth of her services rather than the grand con that seems to be expected of her. Disaster through ignorance rather than malice. As to why the other characters are not questioning her knowledge based on level? I suspect it may be for the same reason that the same characters assume Digdoug knows what he is talking about.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:47 pm 
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    First, I'd like to suggest a possibility I haven't seen wrt Carnymancy: It could be broader than y'all think. I propose that what Dove said about breaking rules is true. I also propose that there's a lot more, mostly involving trickery, and Stageamancy things. Personally, I think the big secret Carnys think they know is that Erfworld is all one big lie. But I also like the idea that they're being conned, and it's not really.

    Second, I find it interesting that although Dove has what we see as a low upkeep, the rest of the side is convinced that she's gouging them.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:55 am 
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    Vanvidum wrote:
    ruleno2 wrote:
    It was all an elaborate play - executed perfectly - because that's what Carnies do. They know you know their game is rigged - but they manage to convince you, for just long enough, that because they like you it doesn't matter if it's rigged. You can do it - it's only rigged for everyone else.


    This makes me wonder what a Carnymancer would or could say to a Ruler they popped under if they were questioned about their discipline, and/or ordered into honesty.


    Remember that one of Thinkamancy's secrets is the complex nature of Duty. It could well be that casters have dual duties: to their side and to their discipline. A Carnymancer under orders to reveal the secrets of Carnymancy could well end up finding some way to obey the letter of his order while still remaining true to Carnymancy. It might even involve informing the King that it would not be in his best interest to know the secrets of Carnymancy, since that would make both of them targets of Carnymancers worldwide... and this would be a bad thing.

    arbo wrote:
    It just dawned on me that the word for "player" is the same one as the word for "player"...

    Well played, Denar. Well played.


    Play on, player.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:32 am 
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    I still think "rule breaker" just means it's illegal/immoral in the eyes of the Magic Kingdom. Wanda is a rule breaker too, but we've never seen her defy the worlds flipping laws of physics. Why would only this one example of "against the rules" be different from other times?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:34 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    I still think "rule breaker" just means it's illegal/immoral in the eyes of the Magic Kingdom. Wanda is a rule breaker too, but we've never seen her defy the worlds flipping laws of physics. Why would only this one example of "against the rules" be different from other times?



    So you mean "laws of Erfworld physics" or "laws of Stupidworld physics"? In Erfworld physics seems to be a very subsidiary subject at best - stopping at hex boundaries when its not your turn for example. So I don't think the term means very much.

    Although Wanda's croakamancy abilities are literally not of our world, they do not qualitatively break our laws of physics. She temporarily reverses the increase in entropy [reanimates a body] at the cost of some energy [juice]. That's something we do when we tidy up our bedrooms. Croakamancy breaks our laws of physics quantatively and our laws of physics are fundamentally quantative! It simply tales too much energy to investigate a body at the level of every cell and rearrange its atoms - and the waste energy would get in the way.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:18 am 
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    Ladies and gentlebeings, I have finally realized what this particular story is about.

    It's not the "long odds to victory" that many of Parson's stories are.

    It's not the "Brains against Brawn in a world where Brawn is all that's needed" story of Lord Crush.

    It's a story about the bigotry of Erf. Like how Native Son was the story about bigotry in America.

    Digdoug was outlawed from even considering going to a place where he may be able to feel some kind of worth about himself, he was oppressed into a type of slavery. Dove is a kept woman in a dark dungeon who is not allowing herself to really hope for anything better. And that's because they are practitioners of "Dirty Magic." They are "disgraces." And Dove was fully willing to embrace the idea that people think she's trying to sleep her way to the top, instead of being hated for her Magic. For what she is instead of who she is.

    Lord PosBreak is definitely a reformist. He may as well be named Martin Luther. But unfortunately, most reformists in our history did not meet decent ends. I can only hope that that kind of fate is different when you have an army that is backing you up. Every named character in this story (except for Creen) is in deserving of a happy ending. But when bigotry is involved, there are very few endings that are truly happy.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:34 am 
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    BakaGrappler wrote:
    Lord PosBreak is definitely a reformist. He may as well be named Martin Luther.



    Luther was pretty bigoted himself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lut ... tisemitism

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:16 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    I can't believe that Erfworld would ever break the fourth wall. Erfworld just isn't that sort of story.


    Well, there is actually one situation where a Carneymancer did exactly that. Remember when Parson 1st entered the MK in his mad portal dash? Jojo looked right into the "camera" before he started his chase.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-06.jpg - Book 2 - pg 60 - panel 8 - I think I even remember some forum comments about how odd that was.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:37 pm 
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    Neko wrote:
    Lilwik wrote:
    I can't believe that Erfworld would ever break the fourth wall. Erfworld just isn't that sort of story.


    Well, there is actually one situation where a Carneymancer did exactly that. Remember when Parson 1st entered the MK in his mad portal dash? Jojo looked right into the "camera" before he started his chase.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-06.jpg - Book 2 - pg 60 - panel 8 - I think I even remember some forum comments about how odd that was.


    Not sure. I'm pretty it's not odd to have that look when you are about to put a plan into effect. You can think of posterity as the camera. But if carneymancers DO know that it is all a story......

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:03 pm 
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    Neko wrote:
    Lilwik wrote:
    I can't believe that Erfworld would ever break the fourth wall. Erfworld just isn't that sort of story.


    Well, there is actually one situation where a Carneymancer did exactly that. Remember when Parson 1st entered the MK in his mad portal dash? Jojo looked right into the "camera" before he started his chase.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-06.jpg - Book 2 - pg 60 - panel 8 - I think I even remember some forum comments about how odd that was.


    I never saw that as a "look into the camera" so much as the camera was placed in front of Jojo in order to give a good view of his expression...

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 11
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:26 pm 
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    On an unrelated note, I wonder if Dove's magic hat is a Chechovian gun.

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