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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:19 am 
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Lilwik wrote:
BakaGrappler wrote:
Me, I'm really interested in hearing Lady Dove give some kind of explanation about Carnymancy aside from "It's the magic of breaking the rules."
Agreed. I'm hugely excited about that. I hope we can leave the whole rule breaking idea behind forever. After all, Carnymancy is said to be about rigging, not breaking, and magic of breaking rules doesn't even make sense. All magic makes things possible that otherwise wouldn't be impossible; that's why it's call magic, so it doesn't mean anything to pick a particular kind of magic and say that one is the one that breaks rules. Calling Carnymancy the magic of breaking rules says absolutely nothing about what Carnymancy can do. Very soon that won't be a problem because we'll know what Carnymancy can do.

You've got your head all wrong, thinking in a Stupid World sort of way. Magic isn't stuff that wouldn't happen normally, because natural magic is how Erf continues. Without casters, food and units would still pop, cities could still be built, orders still given non-verbally, and more. These things are impossible to us, but it's daily life to the people of Erf. It's all stuff that happens normally. Literally everything on Erf is magic, or is subject to some kind of magic. Magic doesn't break the rules, it makes them, because it made all of Erf. Carnymancy tweaks the existing rules, which are already magical. So of course Carnies are not well liked. They are meddlers, fucking with every other discipline's realm of influence, doing things other than the way that they should.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:23 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Carnymancy tweaks the existing rules, which are already magical.
    What does that mean? All of Erfworld is rules of one kind or another. Dirt sits on the ground as an inanimate foundation for everyday activities until a Dirtamancer arrives and tweaks that rule. Walls prevent units from seeing what is happening in other rooms until a Lookamancer decides to tweak that rule. All casters tweak rules, so saying that Carnymancy tweaks rules is saying nothing about Carnymancy. I expect you had something in mind when you said it; you weren't trying to say nothing, and I love theories of magic, so I seriously would like to know what you mean. Perhaps you had certain specific rules in mind, or perhaps you had a certain kind of tweaking in mind.

    Now that we are so close to finally uncovering enormous insights into the true nature of Carnymancy, there may never be a better time to propose all of our favorite theories about the nature of Carnymancy.


    Last edited by Lilwik on Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:32 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Now that we are so close to finally uncovering enormous insights into the true nature of Carnymancy, there may never be a better time to propose all of our favorite theories about the nature of Carnymancy.


    I suspect Carnymancy is partly about moving quantities from one category to another - say from life to fate by some sort of conversion table. Probably all sort of things can be included. That probably includes time - but not as efficiently as turnamancy.

    They probably also use classical non-magical magic and psychology as a skill to make their juice go further

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:11 am 
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    I suspect that each branch of magic defines how certain things work, ie they help create the rules of Erfworld. Dirtamancers don't tweak the rules of how dirt sits. The rules of how dirt sits IS Dirtamancy. And Dirtamancers have power over that.

    I think that Carnymancy is the exception. Carnymancers change how the rules work. Thy don't define any rules of their own.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:28 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Carnymancy tweaks the existing rules, which are already magical.
    What does that mean? All of Erfworld is rules of one kind or another. Dirt sits on the ground as an inanimate foundation for everyday activities until a Dirtamancer arrives tweak that rule. Walls prevent units from seeing what is happening in other rooms until a Lookamancer decides to tweak that rule. All casters tweak rules, so saying that Carnymancy tweaks rules is saying nothing about Carnymancy. I expect you had something in mind when you said it; you weren't trying to say nothing, and I love theories of magic, so I seriously would like to know what you mean. Perhaps you had certain specific rules in mind, or perhaps you had a certain kind of tweaking in mind.

    Now that we are so close to finally uncovering enormous insights into the true nature of Carnymancy, there may never be a better time to propose all of our favorite theories about the nature of Carnymancy.

    The rules of Erf do not exclude the abilities of casters. The rule is not "Walls prevent people from seeing past them." The rule is "Walls prevent units from seeing past them, unless Lookamancy is implemented." The rule is "An incapacitated unit croaks at the end of turn, unless healed by Healomancy. Once healed, the unit is no longer incapacitated." Healomancy doesn't break the rule that a unit croaks after being incapacitated. The rule is that if you aren't healed, you die. Carnymancy tweaked the rule to allow the unit to continue being incapacitated for a number of turns. That's breaking the rules or Erf.

    We know that the different branches of magic require far more than just saying a magic word to get an effect. Thinkamancy needs G-Strings. Croakamancy requires a conscious reparation of the corpses. There is a ton going on below the surface. Rules for how these things work, and reasons that things happen. Carnymancy thumbs it's nose at these reasons, and does things that it shouldn't be able to do. That's what bending or breaking the rules would mean. Doing things that should be impossible, based upon the understanding of every other magical discipline. I highly doubt there is such a thing as natural Carnymancy.

    Edit: Ninjaed by GW. And much more concisely at that.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:14 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Healomancy doesn't break the rule that a unit croaks after being incapacitated. The rule is that if you aren't healed, you die.
    Isn't that a distinction without a difference? Whether Healomancy is considered breaking the rule or not, it still amounts to doing the same thing.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Carnymancy tweaked the rule to allow the unit to continue being incapacitated for a number of turns. That's breaking the rules or Erf.
    Does that actually say something about Carnymancy, or are you just saying that Carnymancy might do anything or everything and we have no idea what its limits may be or even what kind of limits it might have? If Carnymancy breaks the rules, then doesn't that mean that no rules apply to it, and isn't that just another way of saying that we don't understand it?

    Lipkin wrote:
    Carnymancy thumbs it's nose at these reasons, and does things that it shouldn't be able to do.
    No matter how mysterious Carnymancy may be, one thing that we can be sure of is that Carnymancy has certain capabilities and those capabilities are what Carnymancy should be able to do. The idea that Carnymancy can do things that it shouldn't be able to do seems absurd. Who is setting this standard for what Carnymancy should do, and why would you listen to that standards organization when you know that it's getting it wrong?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:07 am 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    I suspect that each branch of magic defines how certain things work, ie they help create the rules of Erfworld. Dirtamancers don't tweak the rules of how dirt sits. The rules of how dirt sits IS Dirtamancy. And Dirtamancers have power over that.

    I think that Carnymancy is the exception. Carnymancers change how the rules work. Thy don't define any rules of their own.

    Jack mentioned a little riddle he once proposed: "How is a Luckamancer like a Naughtymancer? One rules the breaks, and one breaks the rules."

    It's Naughtymancy (Croakamancy, Shockmancy and Retconjuration) that's been mentioned as "breaking the rules", rather than Carnymancy.

    Carnymancy has been suggested as the magic of "fighting Fate", which might be where the confusion is coming from. I don't think it's actually the same thing as "breaking the rules" though.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:13 am 
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    A thing to remember here is that the magic system is really a parody of magic systems in other fictional worlds. As such it is not entirely supposed to make sense. I suppose that should not stop us from trying to make sense of it and we might be right - but that sense is likely to be one that has been through the looking glass.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:21 am 
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    Free Radical wrote:
    Jack mentioned a little riddle he once proposed: "How is a Luckamancer like a Naughtymancer? One rules the breaks, and one breaks the rules."

    It's Naughtymancy (Croakamancy, Shockmancy and Retconjuration) that's been mentioned as "breaking the rules", rather than Carnymancy.

    Carnymancy has been suggested as the magic of "fighting Fate", which might be where the confusion is coming from. I don't think it's actually the same thing as "breaking the rules" though.


    That's one of those quotes that doesn't really make sense any more, unless he's specifically referring to Retconjuration. Shockamancy in particular seems pretty straightforward.

    I don't have the specific link, but doesn't Parson call Carnymancy the magic of rigging the game?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:32 am 
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    One that troubles me is that we need something different from what Jojo pulled with Sylvia. Jojo effectively deferred Sylvia's death. For a life that's not bad. We know we all die but getting an extension at full health is as good as it gets. But a side is potentially immortal so extending it's life does not quite cheat the prediction.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:37 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    That's one of those quotes that doesn't really make sense any more, unless he's specifically referring to Retconjuration. Shockamancy in particular seems pretty straightforward.

    I don't have the specific link, but doesn't Parson call Carnymancy the magic of rigging the game?

    Yes, he did call it that. Here is the link. As you can see from context though, that's Parson's realisation that Jojo's talk about how "You can fight Fate. And win!" is referring to Carnymancy. Parson summarises by turning it into Stupidworld terms relating to Carnies, which Jojo admits is basically right. "Rigging the game" isn't "breaking the rules" either though.

    As to Shockmancy seeming straightforward, I think Rusty Trombone could be described as breaking the rules of polite society in FAQ, which may or may not be a reflection of the discipline. I guess Jack might have had something other than how their magic works in mind with the riddle, but the important point was that the time we heard about casters "breaking the rules" had nothing to do with Carnymancers.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:15 pm 
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    Free Radical wrote:
    GWvsJohn wrote:
    As to Shockmancy seeming straightforward, I think Rusty Trombone could be described as breaking the rules of polite society in FAQ, which may or may not be a reflection of the discipline.


    I think this is the only way in which Shockmancy breaks the rules. It's a parody of evocation.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:14 pm 
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    Parson calls them rules breakers, and Jojo agrees right here: LIAB 83:3
    Quote:
    Parson: Jojo, why are you so worried about it?
    I thought Carnymancers were all about breaking the rules, right?

    Jeftichew: I told you what rule you should break, Lord of the Hamsters.
    We went to great trouble to supply you with the means to defy your Fate.


    My current theory is that they don't really break game rules, but moral/legal ones, and Parson doesn't realize the subtle difference. Nor Digdoug's side.

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