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 Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:22 pm 
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MadZuri wrote:
Rolan7 wrote:

It's possible that carneymancers can break those rules. Remember Sylvia? She was supposed to die, but her fate was changed and safeguarded... at great price.


Jojo never really broke that rule, though. Sylvia was supposed to croak in a fire in a garrison. Jojo just delayed that fate. Not only did she croak that way later, but she was also dusted that way. This should show you that carnies can't break fate. They can delay it. Maybe they can change how one gets to it, but they can't change it.



They strike me as more Rules Lawyer than Rule Breaker. They rig what is already going to happen to go their way rather than completely change/prevent it. Screwing around with Fate like it was a poorly worded contract.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:23 pm 
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    Did anyone else catch that her name means stool pigeon?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:57 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Did anyone else catch that her name means stool pigeon?

    Thanks for pointing that out. I had been wondering if there was some play on "Soiled Dove" involving her name and the fact she's talking to a Dirtamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:45 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    We know casters are rare to pop and that the Magic Kingdom is full of 'barbarian' casters. I wondered why those casters weren't falling over themselves to pledge loyalty to sides that are caster deficient. Is it because of snooty Royalist rulers who disdain anything labelled 'barbarian' except out of necessity? Perhaps there is a greater upkeep cost for non-homegrown casters? Maybe there is a stigma/bad luck superstition attached to casters who survive their sides downfall.

    I'd like to think that once they are 'free' casters begin to realize what few other Erfworlders can fathom much less experience: Freedom - bound to no Duty but their own.


    Joining a side means joining a war, and putting your life at risk. Sides can fall, and all their units can be wiped out. Most casters probably prefer getting paid without having a personal stake in the way a conflict ends.

    Free casters can also join sides on an ongoing basis, such as Vanna working for Faq. Except once they're free they can do it under contract as a barbarian, rather than becoming a sworn unit, so they maintain the option of leaving. It's possible there are freelancer casters that are basically permanent units, who enjoy living in a big castle with a steady paycheck and all the luxuries, but felt no need to swear permanent loyalty to that side in case they ever wanted the freedom to leave. Living in the Magic Kingdom seems pretty pleasant though for the most part. Live in a house in a beautiful forest, have interesting conversations with lots of casters every day, go to parties. Why give that up?

    The real issue though is that ultimately rulers probably don't want to give out paychecks. Free casters will want more payment than just upkeep, and that's money that could be spent popping units or upgrading cities. Rulers would rather just use their unpaid loyal slaves (units don't get paychecks...right? or am i wrong about that?) than spend extra. Casters are really great, but perhaps most sides just don't have the budget to have any salaried employees.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:33 pm 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    The real issue though is that ultimately rulers probably don't want to give out paychecks. Free casters will want more payment than just upkeep, and that's money that could be spent popping units or upgrading cities. Rulers would rather just use their unpaid loyal slaves (units don't get paychecks...right? or am i wrong about that?) than spend extra. Casters are really great, but perhaps most sides just don't have the budget to have any salaried employees.


    I don't think Rulers generally are stingy (look at Don King). While Free casters may want more payment, I expect Loyalty and Duty are more important to Rulers. The existence of the MK really bothers them, because their casters can rub shoulders with anyone else's casters and they can do precisely squat about it. They'd much rather have a unit who was loyal to their side - hence the need for contracts, and the preference for your own casters over hirelings.

    I think Upkeep counts for a unit's paypacket: there is a certain amount that needs paying for the unit not to disband, but this is not the full upkeep cost of a unit, and part of it is providing daily rations for each unit (but not all of it). Based on the camaraderie we've seen in this story and others, I would guess that paying a unit's full upkeep allows for the enjoyment of food and drink and perhaps other small pleasures outside of their daily duties. I imagine that consistently skimping on a unit's full upkeep cost might cause a loss in loyalty, thus increasing the likelihood of those units turning on their side if offered a better opportunity.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:41 pm 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    We know casters are rare to pop and that the Magic Kingdom is full of 'barbarian' casters. I wondered why those casters weren't falling over themselves to pledge loyalty to sides that are caster deficient. Is it because of snooty Royalist rulers who disdain anything labelled 'barbarian' except out of necessity? Perhaps there is a greater upkeep cost for non-homegrown casters? Maybe there is a stigma/bad luck superstition attached to casters who survive their sides downfall.

    I'd like to think that once they are 'free' casters begin to realize what few other Erfworlders can fathom much less experience: Freedom - bound to no Duty but their own.


    Joining a side means joining a war, and putting your life at risk. Sides can fall, and all their units can be wiped out. Most casters probably prefer getting paid without having a personal stake in the way a conflict ends.

    Free casters can also join sides on an ongoing basis, such as Vanna working for Faq. Except once they're free they can do it under contract as a barbarian, rather than becoming a sworn unit, so they maintain the option of leaving. It's possible there are freelancer casters that are basically permanent units, who enjoy living in a big castle with a steady paycheck and all the luxuries, but felt no need to swear permanent loyalty to that side in case they ever wanted the freedom to leave. Living in the Magic Kingdom seems pretty pleasant though for the most part. Live in a house in a beautiful forest, have interesting conversations with lots of casters every day, go to parties. Why give that up?

    The real issue though is that ultimately rulers probably don't want to give out paychecks. Free casters will want more payment than just upkeep, and that's money that could be spent popping units or upgrading cities. Rulers would rather just use their unpaid loyal slaves (units don't get paychecks...right? or am i wrong about that?) than spend extra. Casters are really great, but perhaps most sides just don't have the budget to have any salaried employees.


    Just adding to this, if you think about it, a caster that is contracted to a side gets everything that a sworn caster gets and more. If a caster was part of the side, it gets upkeep, but also loyalty and duty, while the ruler's responsibility to the caster is basically just restricted to making good use of a valuable resource. A caster who is contracted will almost certainly get more than just upkeep and always has the option of quitting if they don't like the task. They can also negotiate other conditions in their contract if they want them.

    The only casters who might gain anything swearing permanent loyalty are ones whose skills are not always or usually in demand. And while there are certainly a number of disciplines for which this applies, I don't think most predictamancers or carnymancers seem desperate enough.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:57 pm 
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    Deezee wrote:
    I don't think most predictamancers or carnymancers seem desperate enough.
    How could Carnymancers not be desperate? Dove said, "I know you ain’t here to hire a Carny." She clearly didn't actually know that, but she must have been very sure and that could only mean that sides who want to hire a Carnymancer are very rare. On top of that we've seen previously that Carnymancers are disliked and distrusted by the other free casters of the Magic Kingdom. If any discipline is going to be desperate, Carnymancers should be desperate.

    Perhaps their only source of income is usually tricking other casters out of their rands and shmuckers. I wouldn't be surprised if Carnymancy somehow makes doing that easy and therefore the temptation to be dishonest is always strong among Carnymancers, while at the same time a reputation for dishonesty prevents them from getting honest work.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:08 am 
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    Deezee wrote:
    I don't think most predictamancers or carnymancers seem desperate enough.
    When it comes to Carnies, I think the problem is probably perception, manifesting itself in almost exactly the same way our world sees carnies. We get so hung up on the fact that they cheat and scam us that we overlook the extreme skill with which they do so. It takes slightly more lateral thinking to realize "hey, what if they're working for me rather than on me?" and most Rulers don't get into that mindset unless they're forced to (by having a Carny pop on their side).

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:32 am 
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    MadZuri wrote:
    Rolan7 wrote:

    It's possible that carneymancers can break those rules. Remember Sylvia? She was supposed to die, but her fate was changed and safeguarded... at great price.


    Jojo never really broke that rule, though. Sylvia was supposed to croak in a fire in a garrison. Jojo just delayed that fate. Not only did she croak that way later, but she was also dusted that way. This should show you that carnies can't break fate. They can delay it. Maybe they can change how one gets to it, but they can't change it.


    You're assuming that it was Sylvia's Fate to burn to death in a fire. That seems...unlikely. From what we know few units in the world have a fate.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:40 am 
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    cheeseaholic wrote:
    You're assuming that it was Sylvia's Fate to burn to death in a fire. That seems...unlikely. From what we know few units in the world have a fate.
    But it is also true that few units burn to death in a fire three times. Maybe Sylvia didn't have a Fate before Jojo worked his magic, but afterward there can be no doubt that something strange was going on with her, and Carnymancy is Fate magic, so is it really so unlikely that Fate was involved? I am hugely excited to discover what secrets of Carnymancy will be revealed in this story. Maybe we will finally really understand Sylvia.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:44 am 
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    Quote:
    more than two hundred portals stood around him in the grass


    Nice to see confirmation that this is a more massively multiplayer !game than had previously been implied. :D

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:07 am 
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    Maybe sides hire Carnies to cause mass Carnage.


    Beeskee wrote:
    Nice to see confirmation that this is a more massively multiplayer !game than had previously been implied. :D

    I guess people better start making fan sides already, or he's going to have a hell of a time filling those in.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:18 am 
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    Imagine a side with both a Croakamancer AND a Carny.

    It would probably be ruled by "Overlord Pariah"

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:02 am 
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    Over 200 portals. That means there are between 200 to 250 sides in the world.

    If we assume 5-10 cities per side that means there are likely up to 2500 cities in the world.

    Puts GW's 15 or Haffaton's 50 in perspective.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:10 am 
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    I wonder if carnies have a strong innate desire to be free, and a strong loyalty to each other (would make sense thematically).

    I'm betting that the attackers have a carnie on their side that she'll tell. Or she'll sabotage Digdug's side because of this. Would make sense with the stool pigeon name too.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:03 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Did anyone else catch that her name means stool pigeon?

    Dove is a color for barstools, and is typically a pale grey color, much like her skin. A dove bar can mean either a bar of soap, a bar of chocolate, or an ice cream treat. Dove chocolate usually has some sort of verse inside the wrapper, such as "Temptation is fun; giving in is even better". Dove also symbolizes peace, while the barstool symbolizes social relaxation. As an acronym, it stands for DOmestic Violence Ended, which could have attributed to the trauma that ashened her signamancy. Doves are also against war/violence (prefering negotiation and compromise) , and typical associated with empowerment of victims or women. As is typical for Erfworld naming convention, many layers and possibilities. Lots of things to tie into the possibility of her trying to cheat fate, oppose war, come clean about some dirty little secret or indulgence, tempting someone to indulge in something, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to find she visits the Space quite often after she gets to the capital.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:22 pm 
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    The Pink Warlord wrote:
    Over 200 portals. That means there are between 200 to 250 sides in the world.

    If we assume 5-10 cities per side that means there are likely up to 2500 cities in the world.

    Puts GW's 15 or Haffaton's 50 in perspective.


    That's roughly the same as the real world. There are around 200 countries on Earth, give or take a few depending which sides you take in territorial disputes.

    And although there are only 200+ active capitals, there are a lot more sides if you also count natural allies, barbarians, and other factions that don't have capital sites.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:29 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Did anyone else catch that her name means stool pigeon?


    Hmm, her hat has the Signamancy of Three Card Monte, but her name would seem to Signify that she's the Shill, rather than a Dealer - perhaps an indication of how she works best? What's the main attraction, I wonder?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:54 am 
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    I know a bunch of people are talking about rigging the rules to alter reality. May I just provide an alternate interpretation of the "rigging" that would be performed by a Stagemancer?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_system

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 8
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:23 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    I know a bunch of people are talking about rigging the rules to alter reality. May I just provide an alternate interpretation of the "rigging" that would be performed by a Stagemancer?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_system

    It seems worth pointing out that "deus ex machina" comes from the way Euripides liked to use a crane.

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