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 Post subject: Digdoug - Episode 5
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:47 pm 
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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:04 pm 
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    I'm having a hard time thinking of something to say. I both feel bad for Digdoug, and proud of him as well. I'm not sure why they would caution him not to speak during the meeting though. Seems like he's got some credibility due to his actions.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:16 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I'm having a hard time thinking of something to say. I both feel bad for Digdoug, and proud of him as well. I'm not sure why they would caution him not to speak during the meeting though. Seems like he's got some credibility due to his actions.


    Politics. If Homekey continues to grow and expand, Delkey's influence with them will continue to shrink. Eventually the 'spin-off shield' side could become a more-than-real threat to them, especially as Homekey's strategy is based around rapid expansion. The more they antagonize Delkey, even in little ways, the more Delkey and Prince Creen see them as an inevitable threat that has to be curtailed now. That may even be why Digdug was assigned to air-defenses, in preparation for such.

    But yeah, sad to hear about Weatherburg. It's just one of those sad things about Erfworld. Sometimes the best strategies are the most ruthless to your own side.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:34 pm 
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    Horizontal growth... is a reason why Charlie is one of most dangerous sides in Erfworld, GK is dangerous, and FAQ is dangerous...

    The ultimate version of it is very fast hit and run force, plundering enemy. Charlie only has 1 city so very little enemy can plunder of his when he goes full war.

    GK has good access to dragons and decryption/zero upkeep units.

    Jillian has fast air force, hard to get at her main city.

    Advantage of these 3 sides air based armies is hard for enemy to counter attack as only ranged units and other air units can strike an airforce, and if you end turn over heavy forest, mountain, etc then likely only enemy air units can reach you (hard to have others have enough move to reach such a square)

    Unclear how well this works for TV, they have flying warlords and bats but pay for having "weaker" units, in some games there is are traps and magic that affect a large area and can wipe out a large number of weak units. (Stronger units tend to survive and if they survive they heal on their turn)

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:42 pm 
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    Smart warlady.

    Oooh, this "vertical strategy" sounds like a Royalist philosophy. Conserve your Royal units and let your non-Royal units die. Perhaps only capital cities pop Royal units, or maybe high-level cities are more likely to pop them? A side that aggressively expands and pays Schmuckers to pop infantry will have fewer non-Royal units overall. This may also explain why Dirtamancers aren't as popular as other kinds of casters, they don't do much for a vertical strategy side because once a city has its defenses upgraded the Dirtamancer can't do anything but make golems.

    It's also interesting to see how spin-off sides treat their parent sides in Erfworld and the pros and cons to spinning off. It's definitely good to spin off because it gives you a nearly-garaunteed ally and sidesteps the efficiency penalty for owning a large number of cities, but it's risky if the spin-off side becomes indifferent or hostile (especially due to the reasons why it was spun off).

    The really cool thing here is the strategy of using Dirtamancy for upgrading defenses on Level 1 and Level 2 cities. Those cities don't give either side many Schmuckers, so they're expensive to capture and give very few rewards to attackers. If Homekey razes all high-level cities and rebuilds them as low-level cities with strong defenses, they'll be coming out ahead no matter how the engagement fares in the long run.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:56 pm 
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    Thomar wrote:
    Smart warlady.

    Oooh, this "vertical strategy" sounds like a Royalist philosophy. Conserve your Royal units and let your non-Royal units die. Perhaps only capital cities pop Royal units, or maybe high-level cities are more likely to pop them? A side that aggressively expands and pays Schmuckers to pop infantry will have fewer non-Royal units overall. This may also explain why Dirtamancers aren't as popular as other kinds of casters, they don't do much for a vertical strategy side because once a city has its defenses upgraded the Dirtamancer can't do anything but make golems.

    It's also interesting to see how spin-off sides treat their parent sides in Erfworld and the pros and cons to spinning off. It's definitely good to spin off because it gives you a nearly-garaunteed ally and sidesteps the efficiency penalty for owning a large number of cities, but it's risky if the spin-off side becomes indifferent or hostile (especially due to the reasons why it was spun off).

    The really cool thing here is the strategy of using Dirtamancy for upgrading defenses on Level 1 and Level 2 cities. Those cities don't give either side many Schmuckers, so they're expensive to capture and give very few rewards to attackers. If Homekey razes all high-level cities and rebuilds them as low-level cities with strong defenses, they'll be coming out ahead no matter how the engagement fares in the long run.


    Well, there is a downside, in that you can become a mini-Haffaton, where you have tons of weak cities spread out that can barely defend themselves outside of traps. Homekey might grow to cover a lot of ground, and that means multiple possible fronts, and they don't have the schmuckers with a bunch of artificially inflated defensive cities, or popping capabilities.

    Homekey's strategy is around keeping fluid, not letting things pile up, and keeping the heat on. The standard royalist strategy is based around improving existing assets, and to be fair, that works for ancient sides that have been around thousands of turns, and generally keep to 'civilized' regional conflicts where a few cities are traded back and forth every now and then.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:02 pm 
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    Nice little story, this one. Kind of short and simple and bittersweet.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:47 pm 
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    The thing that prevents Homekey from becoming Haffaton is that they take the money that comes from razing these cities and pumps it into their army, Haffaton just expanded, hit diminishing returns and stagnated, you need to combine these strategies, boost your home cities slightly monetarily while expending Juice to make your small cities tougher to take, you hit the diminishing returns point faster by not upgrading, but for an initially expansionist side, it certainly works.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:12 pm 
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    I think the key to the strategy is that the loss of a smaller city isn't as big a loss. Yes, they no longer get the muckers from the city, but they made so much razing that city when they took it in the first place that it's not that big a deal. When the side that took the city piles money into it to keep the city from falling again, because the horizontal side has a beefier army, they can take the city right back and raze it again.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:53 pm 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    The thing that prevents Homekey from becoming Haffaton is that they take the money that comes from razing these cities and pumps it into their army, Haffaton just expanded, hit diminishing returns and stagnated, you need to combine these strategies, boost your home cities slightly monetarily while expending Juice to make your small cities tougher to take, you hit the diminishing returns point faster by not upgrading, but for an initially expansionist side, it certainly works.
    That depends. The long-term feasibility of the scheme hinges on how severe upkeep costs are in Erfworld (and most indicators are that they're a big deal.)

    If you sack cities and use the proceeds to pop troops, how are you going to pay the upkeep on those troops? The only way is to wage more warfare -- to constantly capture and sack additional cities. You have additional pressure to do so because you want to 'spend' your troops -- if you have a ton of troops (ones you could only afford to pop because of a one-time infusion of cash from sacking cities) and leave them sitting around with only low-level cities to support them, the upkeep costs will eat you alive. So what Puck is describing in this chapter is basically a Raubwirtschaft -- a plunder-economy.

    This might explain why Creen and Delkey are so nervous. What happens when Homekey has sacked all the other major cities within a reasonable distance from its capital, and is left with a huge army that they can't afford to support? Like any other side, Homekey can't expand forever, but it needs to devour every city in reach to pay for its army, so eventually Delkey will be the only target left.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:58 pm 
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    I wonder whether Digdoug's sudden orders to return to the capital were because his ruler knew an attack was coming, and didn't want his precious Dirtamancer there when the battle started.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:06 am 
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    When Lord Hunt showed up, I wondered if Peck would be far behind.
    And Carl Tunnel was a bit of a stretch. He could have a brother Guyon.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:54 am 
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    Quote:
    ... Backslush, the hex-wide river that separated Homekey from Delkey. Digdoug probably had the best view in town ...

    That town being the capital, well within one turn from their mother side. No mention of a bridge was made. Also:
    Quote:
    ... in the Key Boardroom ...

    So many puns.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:37 am 
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    Aquillion wrote:
    If you sack cities and use the proceeds to pop troops, how are you going to pay the upkeep on those troops? The only way is to wage more warfare -- to constantly capture and sack additional cities. You have additional pressure to do so because you want to 'spend' your troops -- if you have a ton of troops (ones you could only afford to pop because of a one-time infusion of cash from sacking cities) and leave them sitting around with only low-level cities to support them, the upkeep costs will eat you alive. So what Puck is describing in this chapter is basically a Raubwirtschaft -- a plunder-economy.

    This might explain why Creen and Delkey are so nervous. What happens when Homekey has sacked all the other major cities within a reasonable distance from its capital, and is left with a huge army that they can't afford to support? Like any other side, Homekey can't expand forever, but it needs to devour every city in reach to pay for its army, so eventually Delkey will be the only target left.


    If you have lots of land and troops, you can send the troops to hunt, farm, fish and forage to help maintain their upkeep (mining as well if you have tunnelers). So really the system isn't as unstable as it first appears, it is only during warfare that you need to be conquering cities.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:43 am 
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    Arrgghhh... For the first time in a long time, I'm not getting puns. I understand Homekey, and Delkey, but what's with Lord Hunt and Peck? I know there is a joke there, but I just don't see it.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:53 am 
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    Glome wrote:
    Aquillion wrote:
    If you sack cities and use the proceeds to pop troops, how are you going to pay the upkeep on those troops? The only way is to wage more warfare -- to constantly capture and sack additional cities. You have additional pressure to do so because you want to 'spend' your troops -- if you have a ton of troops (ones you could only afford to pop because of a one-time infusion of cash from sacking cities) and leave them sitting around with only low-level cities to support them, the upkeep costs will eat you alive. So what Puck is describing in this chapter is basically a Raubwirtschaft -- a plunder-economy.

    This might explain why Creen and Delkey are so nervous. What happens when Homekey has sacked all the other major cities within a reasonable distance from its capital, and is left with a huge army that they can't afford to support? Like any other side, Homekey can't expand forever, but it needs to devour every city in reach to pay for its army, so eventually Delkey will be the only target left.


    If you have lots of land and troops, you can send the troops to hunt, farm, fish and forage to help maintain their upkeep (mining as well if you have tunnelers). So really the system isn't as unstable as it first appears, it is only during warfare that you need to be conquering cities.

    Plus, they talked about promoting units as well as popping them. It increases their upkeep, but probably not by more than an entire new unit would.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:24 am 
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    Sir. Knowsalot wrote:
    Arrgghhh... For the first time in a long time, I'm not getting puns. I understand Homekey, and Delkey, but what's with Lord Hunt and Peck? I know there is a joke there, but I just don't see it.

    This is referring to a typing technique.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:25 am 
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    Quote:
    The sun was setting majestically over the estuary of the Backslush

    Interesting. That means they're a coastal side, with their capital right by the coast. I wonder if the trouble they're expecting is coming from across the sea instead of from DelKey?

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:12 am 
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    Just goes to show how powerful a well thought out trap can be.

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     Post subject: Re: Digdoug - Episode 5
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:27 am 
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