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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:03 am 
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I'm sorry, but I don't ignore basic fundamental logic and literally ignore what people say. Nice try though.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:25 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    No one in particular wrote:
    You want to dig a tunnel and work a mine. You can use:
      Gobwins
      Marbits
      Dirtamancers
      Diggers
    These are all very different solutions to the same problems,
    That's a terrible example. Those aren't different at all. What the hell? A better example would be trying to hide, using tunnels, veils, and cover from the trees. They all work different, but achieve the same end of keeping your forces out of sight. And the counter to each is different too. What the fuck? Marbits, Diggers, and Gobwins are not examples of achieving the same goal by different ends.

    • Diggers are just Units with the special for digging; they're subject to Duty, can be popped by Cities, and need tools to dig.
    • Dirtamancers are Casters, can tunnel with nothing but Juice, and can't be consciously popped by Cities.
    • Marbits & Gobwins are Natural Allies, who have to be found in the wild, only need shmuckers to pop more, and can break Alliances and turn on you in extreme cases.
    Admittedly, Marbits & Gobwins are nearly identical, but I threw them both in because they're still a little different, and some Natural Allies will refuse to ally with one or the other.

    The point still remains though, that a Marbit is not a Dirtamancer is not a Digger. Where you find and how you use each Unit is different... but each one will get you a hole in the ground.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:15 am 
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    ...Seriously? All three were guys with picks. If you're using a guy with a pick, you're using guys with picks. Where you got "guy with a pick" doesn't really matter when what you're comparing it to is "telepathic brain radio" vs "teleportation of hand written notes." It's like trying to say that the difference between red delicious and granny smith apples is the same as the difference between all apples and bananas. And that's terrible. I get what you're trying to say, you're just saying it in an terrible way is all. A better example would be entering the tunnel layer by burrowing, teleportation, phasing through rock like a ghost, and moving around the ground in the fourth dimension. They all get you "down" a map layer, but they each do it a different way. They aren't just 4 examples of "dude who teleports."

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:36 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    In true Magic Kingdom debate style, I'm just going to repeat that I think it's all about size.

    Changemancy - DnD sizes "Fine" to "Small"
    Dollamancy - "Tiny" to "Large"
    Dirtamancy - "Medium" to "Gargantuan"

    Changemancers can modify and create from nothing, but only small things (clothes, weapons, tools)
    Dollamancers can only modify existing materials, but from hand-held (pew pew!) up to Heavy Mount size (LFNs & Tchotchkes)
    Dirtamancers can only modify existing materials, but from Heavy unit (golems) up to City size.

    If you modify a tiny thing, it's not Dirtamancy. If you modify a City, it's not Changemancy.

    Dollamancy actually probably has the largest Golem we've ever seen. The super golem of TV's dollamancer.

    0beron wrote:
    ^that.

    Also, as I said, it is quite simply ridiculous to assume that Sizemore was conjuring out of nothing for the tunnel when we know he had raw material to work with in the first place. It is inventing an explanation where none is needed. Further, if Dirt and Ditto did indeed conjure, Sizemore would have said Stuffamancy rather than Changemancy in SU 28. But wait....what's that you say? Rob specifically made a point of going back to make him NOT say Stuffamancy instead...? Looks to me like we have our answer folks, though I'm sure laughable attempts to claim otherwise will continue.

    No, he specifically referred to a blanket. Presumably dittomancy, and dirtamancy will not get you a magic blanket. Then he lists all the cool items they can make.

    No one in particular wrote:
    1. One issue is that Dirtamancers don't fabricate items; they fabricate man-sized or larger constructs. Ultimately, it might be a matter of classification. If you modify a small thing, it was Changemancy because it was done on a small thing. If you make a trap or modify the structure of a City it's Dirtamancy. Dollamancers muddy the waters with their object modification and golem creation, but really, it's all Stuffamancy.

    Dollamancy is spookism! THe stuffamancy disciplines are dirtamancy, dittomancy, and changamancy!
    0beron wrote:
    If Dirt and Ditto did it as well, he would say Stuffamancy as a whole proves the "magic=Matter" argument. This isn't reading Rob's mind, it's simply reading the damn words on the page in plain simple Language. Rob made a mistake when he first wrote it, and we are now seeing the corrected version, over FOUR YEARS later, after he's specifically stated he was thinking about it the entire time, and after reading our previous debate recently. You can damn well bet he got it right this time. If you're gonna argue, at least do the rest of us a favor by having even half a leg to stand on.

    Once again, Parson asked about a magic blanket. We have seen dirtamancy creating new stuff. And I quote "Stone blocks and tiles sprang from nothing"

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:49 pm 
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    As I have said...something like 4 times by now, Sizemore is NOT talking about a booping blanket, he speaks of ALL MATTER. His words are explicitly clear, period, end of story. There are no qualifiers, no issue of details, just all of Matter ever. Read the damn words on the page.
    Quote:
    'what is magic?' and 'what is Matter?' Some casters think they're the same thing, and that Changemancy proves it.
    Read it, comprehend it, and accept it.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:56 pm 
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    Dirtamancy can create new small items though. For example, when Wanda upgraded Goodminton's tower with a dirtmancy scroll, a side effect was that the tower now had a "silver chocolate service" and could create hot cocoa from then on.

    I think Dirtamancy can create small items if they're a natural part of a building it creates. For example, if you use Dirtamancy to build a city it has tables, chairs, spoons, cups, etc. inside of it. Those small items can almost be viewed as part of the terrain though. If you're in a prison, it's going to have manacles and cuffs. If you're in a library, it will have books. Etc.

    I think all 3 branches of stuffmancy can create stuff, but they focus on different things. Dirtamancy deals with the stuff of terrain. Changeamancy deals with small items separate from terrain. Dittomancy affects the numbers of the stuff that's already present.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:59 pm 
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    Cities seem to be special sites that make all kinds of stuff. Wanda made the tower bigger by making more of the existing building, and cities do pop rations (natural Moneymancy IIRC, and it makes sense cus of upkeep) so she merely altered what type of rations and food the city popped. That's how I'd interpret it.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:05 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Cities seem to be special sites that make all kinds of stuff. Wanda made the tower bigger by making more of the existing building, and cities do pop rations (natural Moneymancy IIRC, and it makes sense cus of upkeep) so she merely altered what type of rations and food the city popped. That's how I'd interpret it.


    Yeah. The items cities create might be considered natural changeamancy. Dirtamancy buildings the building (whether it's a dirtamancer building it or a ruler using natural dirtamancy to create it). Then the city performs natural changeamancy to create appropriate items.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:29 pm 
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    Omnimancer wrote:
    Dirtamancy can create new small items though. For example, when Wanda upgraded Goodminton's tower with a dirtmancy scroll, a side effect was that the tower now had a "silver chocolate service" and could create hot cocoa from then on.
    That is well spotted. The actual quote is from Episode 24: "In Wanda's suite, a silver chocolate service sat upon a side table. When she'd boosted the tower, a few such nice little changes in design, decor, and accouterments had crept in from her mind's eye."

    I think the only way to make sense of that is to conclude that Dirtamancy and Changemancy blur together at the edges. They must have something in common since they are both classified as Stuffamancy, and knowing one helps a caster learn the other as we've seen with Eyemancy and the Great Minds. From the quote it sounds like when a Dirtamancer creates a building furnishings come with it as a sort of subconscious Changemancy. I expect that in order to have deliberate control over the furnishings the caster would need to know Changemancy.

    Perhaps all classes of magic have some sort of blurring between the axes. Predictamancy told Delphie where Jillian was going to be; that sounds like Findamancy, and of course Predictamancy can reveal the outcome of a battle, much like Mathamancy. Turnamancy can fabricate a vehicle, much like Dollamancy can fabricate a mount, and Dollamancy can fabricate a jet pack much like Weirdomancy can make things fly. Lookamancy shows you distant places and Thinkamancy shows you distant people. Thinkamancy can create thinkspaces that aren't real, blurring the line between Thinkamancy and Foolamancy. I have no ideas about Hippiemancy, Naughtymancy, Stagemancy, and Clevermancy, but maybe they also blur the axes somehow.


    Last edited by Lilwik on Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:50 pm 
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    We already know that the design of the city effects what pops. If you have a butcher shop, meat will pop in your larder. The dirtamancy created the shop, but it didn't create the meat. That's either moneymancy or changemancy. Either way, Wanda created the hot chocolate service when she upgraded the tower, but she didn't create the chocolate itself.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:45 am 
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    It's mostly irrelevant, since the issue is whether Dirtamancy can make stuff from nothing, and it did when it made new bricks for the tower. Unless that changes during the mass RetCon of book 0 part 1, Dirtamancers can Conjure bricks in current canon.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:01 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    It's mostly irrelevant, since the issue is whether Dirtamancy can make stuff from nothing, and it did when it made new bricks for the tower. Unless that changes during the mass RetCon of book 0 part 1, Dirtamancers can Conjure bricks in current canon.

    Upgrades and city building is still Moneymancy. Dirtamancy just lowers the cost.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:48 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Upgrades and city building is still Moneymancy. Dirtamancy just lowers the cost.
    Episode 20 was upgrading the tower which isn't necessarily the same thing as upgrading the city (no mention of the city's level changing), nor do we even know for certain that Moneymancy is required to upgrade a city. In this case Moneymancy was never mentioned and shmuckers were never mentioned; all we saw was Wanda reading a Dirtamancy scroll, and then the tower grew as if in response to the scroll. We've seen Digdoug upgrading towers more than once with no mention of Moneymancy. I also notice that the tower growing seemed nothing like what happened in Summer Update 1, which is our only example of how Moneymancy upgrades cities.

    Maybe the tower was upgraded by Natural Moneymancy with the scroll only being used to guide the upgrade and reduce the cost. We don't know enough about Dirtamancy or Moneymancy to say for certain, but since Moneymancy isn't mentioned it seems like a leap to guess it was involved. It seems that the only reason we would think that Moneymancy might be involved is if we are assuming that Dirtamancy can't conjure things, but what reason do we have to assume that?

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:24 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    It's mostly irrelevant, since the issue is whether Dirtamancy can make stuff from nothing, and it did when it made new bricks for the tower. Unless that changes during the mass RetCon of book 0 part 1, Dirtamancers can Conjure bricks in current canon.


    How do we know they weren't made from the ground?

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:10 pm 
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    Exactly Drache. Wanda didn't make a Tower out of absolutely nothing, she made an existing Tower bigger, in a city hex which are sites that already produce the materials to make buildings to begin with. So just because the 3rd person narrative describes it as "bricks appearing out of nowhere" from a visual perspective doesn't mean that is mechanically what happened from a magical perspective.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:25 pm 
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    What.

    It should be a capital crime to do what you guys do to the English language.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:30 pm 
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    Shai, you're making an assumption, not stating a fact, so you have nothing to be indignant about. What you are citing is a 3rd person description of what the spell looked like. It's not a first person account of what how the spell worked.

    If you want descriptions of how Dirtamancy mechanically works, look at Digdoug and Sizemore. They both talk about altering what is there. Sizemore specifically talks about clearing the earth and turning it into beams for a tunnel. Digdoug talks about the existing features of Towers and how he can use/expand upon them. They always approach it from a "how can I change what is here" perspective rather than "what can I make brand new".

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:18 pm 
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    Right. In retrospect I can see what you're saying. Clearly the most credible explanation for what we saw is that Wanda is a weather balloon.

    Anyway. What do you other people suppose the statement that Dirtamancers are Fabricators and Golem Tinkerers means? That is to say, what's the difference between an Item Fabricated with Dirtamancy and Dollamancy? (That is, assuming DigDoug knows what he's talking about.) Or the difference between two different kinds of Stone Golem? Actually that last one might be better used to necro the Golem tread.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:30 pm 
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    Not sure what exactly your question means?
    But we did talk about that earlier on, forget if it was this thread or another one though.
    "Fabricate" means to construct or manufacture, synonymous with "make" "create" and "produce". Dirt, Doll, and Change all "make" things, just different types and/or on different scales. You make a building, make clothing, make an item, make golems, etc. The difference when it comes to items would be what it's capable of. Dollamancy has Motion, whereas Dirtamancy has Matter. We haven't gotten examples or explanations of what that distinction would mean in the context of items though, so we can only speculate. My theory is that Dollamancy items would have active effects (blocking a Shock blast, firing lasers and nets, etc) whereas Dirt or Change produce things with passive constant effects like a more structurally sound building or a higher quality sword.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:11 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    How do we know they weren't made from the ground?
    Because Episode 20 specifically says they "sprang from nothing."

    0beron wrote:
    So just because the 3rd person narrative describes it as "bricks appearing out of nowhere" from a visual perspective doesn't mean that is mechanically what happened from a magical perspective.
    Even so it seems to rule out any source of raw material, unless we are counting invisible juice as raw material. Where there were no blocks, new blocks appeared, the very definition of "conjured" as I use the word. The fact that some invisible process must have been behind it doesn't change the outcome.

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