Forum    Members    Search    FAQ

Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:10 am 
User avatar
Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user has been published! This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
Offline
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am
Posts: 3708
Charlie is the more pressing issue, as is security. Had he been talking to a predictamancer, he probably would have been more interested in just what been foretold about him.

_________________
I'm writing a fan fiction. It's called Murder in the Magic Kingdom. Check it out, if you'd like. Completed May 5th, 2015

I'm writing a sequel! It's called Finding Sanctuary. Please do give it a look. Last updated December 1st, 2016.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:09 am 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:25 pm
    Posts: 1212
    I wonder if Tramennis could have saved a bunch of space by just writing "Our boop is booped." :D

    The whole upcoming situation is just one big Charlie Foxtrot, with an emphasis on Charlie. We're like the Archons, we have a lot of speculation about him and little to no factual data. There's a lot of good points posted here about what is going to happen next, but he really is a wildcard.

    Then again, for most other sides it's much easier because the goals are more immediate: Survival. Everyone's scrambling to not be wiped out next, basically, either from internal issues, like bankruptcy or a coup, or from GK blasting them off the surface of Erfworld. We know about as much about Jetstone or Transylvito's long-term goals as we do about Charlescomm's. I'm hoping we see more development of all the sides in the upcoming book.

    As far as Parson is concerned, he's only been in the Magic Kingdom a short time, and he's got a LOT of questions. I'm sure we'll get to them soon enough, once we touch base with everyone else in Erfworld first. :D

    _________________
    Toolshed - let's get to Milestone 4 - Rob & Linda can do things like buy a house and have a fancy wedding. Plus, Erfworld bedtime story!
    - Thanks to everyone for helping to reach Milestone 3! :)
    - You can Friend users to highlight their posts!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:39 am 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 7:09 pm
    Posts: 1
    Website: http://www.saga-ga.org
    Yahoo Messenger: Silver_Songman
    AOL: SQSama
    Location: San Angelo, Tx
    Just got around to this and admittedly, I haven't read through all 6 pages of this thread, so maybe this was addressed...
    Wouldn't Tramennis have addressed the future monarch as "Your Majesty" instead of "Your Highness?"
    If this has already been mentioned/answered, please feel free to ignore!

    _________________
    Don't worry, I know exactly what I'm doing.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:29 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:39 am
    Posts: 389
    Quote:
    Wouldn't Tramennis have addressed the future monarch as "Your Majesty" instead of "Your Highness?"


    Tramennis is the actual King, so he acknowledges only his own Majesty. Any possible future King is only "Highness" for the actual and only King.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:57 am 
    User avatar
    Year of the Dwagon Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:48 pm
    Posts: 565
    Lipkin wrote:
    This is true. Predictions don't seem to be misinterpreted. But I bet no one has tried to exploit a loophole in such predictions before either. And I bet Parson would be the first to try.


    Actually that's kinda what Tommy tried to do with Wanda and Olive. The prediction said that Wanda would one day serve Olive and Tommy thought they could instead convince Olive to turn and/or capture her, make her the chief caster and thus fulfill the prophecy that way. Obviously it did not work out. Also i think Banhammer might have been looking for a loophole when he saw the chance for Faq's court to join up with Haffaton.

    _________________
    My Deviantart

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:51 am 
    User avatar
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user has been published! This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am
    Posts: 3708
    I had forgotten about that.

    But it's one thing for someone who is fated to be defeated to search for a loop hole with someone who would love nothing more than to defeat them, vs someone who is fated to win looking for a loop hole to end hostilities as quickly as possible. Parson is far from merciless, unlike Olive.

    _________________
    I'm writing a fan fiction. It's called Murder in the Magic Kingdom. Check it out, if you'd like. Completed May 5th, 2015

    I'm writing a sequel! It's called Finding Sanctuary. Please do give it a look. Last updated December 1st, 2016.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:22 pm 
    Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:06 am
    Posts: 268
    WarFAN wrote:
    Quote:
    Wouldn't Tramennis have addressed the future monarch as "Your Majesty" instead of "Your Highness?"


    Tramennis is the actual King, so he acknowledges only his own Majesty. Any possible future King is only "Highness" for the actual and only King.


    I don't know that any of them have ever seriously addressed a Future Sovereign, so as to establish a formal precedent, but I do know that when writing to one another during "friendly" times, the various European Monarchs of the Empress Victoria's time used "Cousin". :) They literally were cousins, in most cases, but even where they were not, the reference was to being "Us Kings, all of a family" analogy.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:55 pm 
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am
    Posts: 1191
    0beron wrote:
    AbuDhabi wrote:
    Do Erfworlders die of old age?
    Almost definitely not. It's never been stated that they don't outright....but we've never seen it happen, and we also see units look "old" by stupidworld standards irrespective of their actual ages, and also seen them gradually appear "younger" (Wanda and Maggie, perhaps even Jack a bit arguably). So the safe answer is no they don't...or if they do, the definition of "old age" is far longer than the 100 neighborhood for humans.
    There was a vague reference to it. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the songs we've seen sung in Erfworld. Something about "from the turn we pop to the turn we decay," which I always took to mean dying of old age. But if Wanda is actually older than Jetstone, that might have just been an oblique reference that I misinterpreted. You decay after you die, after all. So even though referring to the event as "the turn we decay" rather than "the turn we die" is less than straightforward, it may have been necessary for a rhyme, or been artistic license, or whatever.

    CelebrenIthil wrote:
    I think we can safely rule out the "if the Side persists, the heir will still pop somehow" theory.
    It doesn't rule out "the heir popping process might resume if the city is recaptured", but Trem doesn't mention any such hopes.
    You're right. It's been made pretty clear that a captured city loses its production queue. Right now the Jetstone (the city) production queue is controlled by Stanley. There's zero chance that the city, if recaptured, will still have the Jetstone (the side) heir prince in the queue.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Charlie is the more pressing issue, as is security. Had he been talking to a predictamancer, he probably would have been more interested in just what been foretold about him.
    But it was Issac who confirmed to Parson that Parson was the subject of three, no, four different prophesies. I do think Parson might have shown a little interest in having Issac expand on that brief exchange. Just the fact that it was "three, no four" should have piqued Parson's curiosity.

    _________________
    How using capslock wins arguments:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:18 pm 
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:07 pm
    Posts: 19
    Lipkin wrote:
    Parson is far from merciless, unlike Olive.


    With respect, and in the spirit of sparking stimulating conversation I would like to suggest a different view.

    Preface: You in no way said "Parson is merciful", which would have been a demonstrably false statement.

    I claim now that Parson is in fact merciless. After becoming the greatest killer known to Erfworld at the end of book 1(Olive gets the greatest destroyer award), Parson is very remorseful. However, it is at best a superficial regret. For all his angst, he didn't learn a thing. His idea of learning from his mistakes [round two against Jetstone] wasn't about how to come to an understanding with his enemies (in spite of their willingness to talk yet a second time!), it was about better ways to destroy them; involving yadda yadda more compassion for his own forces?

    In any opportunity Parson has had to be merciful, he instead chooses cutthroat. Sword of Ruthlessness or not, he never chooses negotiate, he never chooses to come to terms, he never chooses to influence Stanley towards peace.

    Erworlders are born with a little jester in their head that tells them to stab their neighbor, cut off their heads, raze their cities, conquer dissimilar sides. Parson is no different. His Jester compels/motivates him to fight and win just as bad as Stanley's does, as any other warlord.

    King Banhammer was different.
    Charlie is different.
    Jillian (as of current book 0) became different.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:27 pm 
    User avatar
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user has been published! This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am
    Posts: 3708
    Sure, but Parson didn't have the luxury to stand about talking at the time. His people needed him.

    _________________
    I'm writing a fan fiction. It's called Murder in the Magic Kingdom. Check it out, if you'd like. Completed May 5th, 2015

    I'm writing a sequel! It's called Finding Sanctuary. Please do give it a look. Last updated December 1st, 2016.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:27 pm 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:02 pm
    Posts: 209
    IMHO, Tram is going to parlay with Parson for a non-aggression treaty, because diplomacy is his inclination, and he has nothing to loose. It might work, too, because for Parson, squashing what's left of Jetstone would only be a distraction from the real threat, which is Charlie.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:55 pm 
    User avatar
    Year of the Dwagon Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:48 pm
    Posts: 565
    Goshen wrote:
    IMHO, Tram is going to parlay with Parson for a non-aggression treaty, because diplomacy is his inclination, and he has nothing to loose. It might work, too, because for Parson, squashing what's left of Jetstone would only be a distraction from the real threat, which is Charlie.


    That doesn't sound like what Tram is planning. He's looking for a new strategy to fight GK. Not to mention i can't help but think he might be a bit skeptical about Parley's with Parson. Twice Parson has violated Parley; would Tram really trust him enough not to do so again, or trust that parson won't find a loophole to deal damage to Jetstone even if they did make a deal. by this point Tram might feel like he'd be dealing with a carnymancer. I actually do wonder if these Parley violations will come to bite Parson in the butt... namely when he wants to focus on fighting charlie while getting the RCC off his back. With the option of Parley he might be able to offer them an official ceasefire while he goes after Charlie; but after those parley's he broke, he might find it hard to get even Tram to agree.

    _________________
    My Deviantart

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:57 pm 
    User avatar
    Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Shiny Red Star Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user posted the comment of the month This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
    Posts: 4412
    Location: Morlock Wells
    Ohberon wrote:
    There was a vague reference to it. I'm pretty sure it was in one of the songs we've seen sung in Erfworld. Something about "from the turn we pop to the turn we decay," which I always took to mean dying of old age. But if Wanda is actually older than Jetstone, that might have just been an oblique reference that I misinterpreted. You decay after you die, after all. So even though referring to the event as "the turn we decay" rather than "the turn we die" is less than straightforward, it may have been necessary for a rhyme, or been artistic license, or whatever.
    Very good catch, I don't recall that. Do you have any idea where this was so I could re-read? Since it was a song I think we can probably assume the Rhyme-o-mancy takes precedence over clarity of meaning, but I'd still be curious to review it.

    _________________
    "I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:34 am 
    User avatar
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:44 pm
    Posts: 377
    0beron wrote:
    Very good catch, I don't recall that. Do you have any idea where this was so I could re-read? Since it was a song I think we can probably assume the Rhyme-o-mancy takes precedence over clarity of meaning, but I'd still be curious to review it.

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_111

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:09 am 
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am
    Posts: 1191
    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    Very good catch, I don't recall that. Do you have any idea where this was so I could re-read? Since it was a song I think we can probably assume the Rhyme-o-mancy takes precedence over clarity of meaning, but I'd still be curious to review it.

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_111


    How do people find these things! I stand impressed.

    So "decay" was indeed necessary for a rhyme, and doesn't have to have anything to do with dying of old age. That was the way I took it at the time, as I said, but there have been a lot of pages since then with nary a mention of "Old king So-and-so, who died peacefully on the throne and was replaced by Prince Whatsisname."

    _________________
    How using capslock wins arguments:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:35 am 
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am
    Posts: 1191
    TheChaplin wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Parson is far from merciless, unlike Olive.


    With respect, and in the spirit of sparking stimulating conversation I would like to suggest a different view.

    [snippage]

    In any opportunity Parson has had to be merciful, he instead chooses cutthroat. Sword of Ruthlessness or not, he never chooses negotiate, he never chooses to come to terms, he never chooses to influence Stanley towards peace.
    Claiming that Parson never chooses to negotiate is simply not accurate.

    On the receiving side, when has Parson ever been offered anything which might be considered decent terms?

    He did negotiate a surrender to Ansom, but Ansom's terms were pretty much "surrender unconditionally, out of honor." This unconditional surrender wasn't going to spare GK as a side, unlike the unconditional surrender of Japan to the US after WWII. (And for any historian who might claim that the Potsdam Declaration was not 'unconditional surrender' because it did specify some concessions to the Japanese government and people, just recall that the Japanese had absolutely no say in the terms of the Declaration. It was not a negotiation, it was a "here are our terms, take it or leave it, and by leave it we mean we will destroy you." Anything given to the Japanese in the Declaration was purely out of Allied political expediency and/or mercy, however you may wish to perceive it.) Breaking those terms is something any nation at any point in history would have done. Had the Japanese not been offered the concessions in the Declaration, one of which promised that the nation of Japan was not going to be destroyed, they probably would have fought on. Why not, in the face of the promise of destruction anyway? Parson faced the same offer, and of course chose to continue the fight, however desperate it might be.

    And we know from the discussion of Jetstone's negotiation SOP that the off-turn and 'trapped' GK expeditionary force could only expect terms intended to insult, such as "Disband all your dwagons for 10 schmuckers." (not an exact quote) But it never even got to that, did it? Because as soon as he approached, Trem went back into his slapstick routine, insulting Ossomer "Ansom could pull off the red and black outfit, but it looks atrocious on you", and "turn back, GK sucks", and then, in a huge irony, "Parson is dishonorable because he violated a truce for parley to kill Ansom!" Which is both not true, it wasn't a parley but a surrender, and hypocritical, since Bea did the same thing during an actual parley, and she is a Royal, and nary a word against her from the other Royals, right?

    On the giving side, Parson offered Jetstone an alliance. Ansom said "We would greatly prefer alliance to conquest", and was interrupted, insulted, and had to try to get past the slapstick routine Trem was treating the meeting as, instead of a legitimate negotiation or parley. Ossomer's final refusal, immediately and without taking a single turn for thought, was on the philosophical grounds that Toolists needed to prove the superiority of the Toolist mandate that those who wield the Titan's Tools are more in favor than the Royals. And then the Toolists did just that.

    And they also offered alliance to Unaroyal, but Bea couldn't stand the thought that her daughter was decrypted and immediately broke parley to assassinate her daughter Cruz. And then chose the murder/suicide of her entire side over alliance.

    Pretty extremist actions, on both the parts of Unaroyal and Jetstone. And what did it get them? Their sides either ended forever or in ruins, struggling to make it to the last capital site remaining with few forces left.

    So, please don't claim that Parson never negotiates. Because he does. And he's either been offered insulting or unacceptable terms, or has had his offers completely shut down without any serious consideration.

    _________________
    How using capslock wins arguments:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:20 am 
    Offline
    Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:25 am
    Posts: 2
    Oberon wrote:
    On the giving side, Parson offered Jetstone an alliance. Ansom said "We would greatly prefer alliance to conquest", and was interrupted, insulted, and had to try to get past the slapstick routine Trem was treating the meeting as, instead of a legitimate negotiation or parley. Ossomer's final refusal, immediately and without taking a single turn for thought, was on the philosophical grounds that Toolists needed to prove the superiority of the Toolist mandate that those who wield the Titan's Tools are more in favor than the Royals. And then the Toolists did just that.

    And they also offered alliance to Unaroyal, but Bea couldn't stand the thought that her daughter was decrypted and immediately broke parley to assassinate her daughter Cruz. And then chose the murder/suicide of her entire side over alliance.

    Pretty extremist actions, on both the parts of Unaroyal and Jetstone. And what did it get them? Their sides either ended forever or in ruins, struggling to make it to the last capital site remaining with few forces left.

    So, please don't claim that Parson never negotiates. Because he does. And he's either been offered insulting or unacceptable terms, or has had his offers completely shut down without any serious consideration.


    Both of these examples are from when Ansom was Chief Warlord though. As Bea says the negotiations there are about the mandate Decrypted Ansom thinks he has to unite the world under Wanda.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:49 am 
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am
    Posts: 1191
    mimhoff wrote:
    Both of these examples are from when Ansom was Chief Warlord though. As Bea says the negotiations there are about the mandate Decrypted Ansom thinks he has to unite the world under Wanda.
    Bea says a lot of things which are suspect, take nothing she says at face value. This is a woman who murder/suicided her entire side when offered alliance! She is clearly insane.

    Who here thinks that Parson had nothing to do with it at all? Sure, he wasn't physically present for either negotiation. Neither was Stanley, and the offers were being made in his name and with his approval, right?

    Parson was behind the scenes, giving advice on the best strategies to pursue. According to Parson, there was only one time he told Wanda "That's not a good plan" (and she went ahead and did it anyway, but we never learned if there were any consequences from that), so Parson is by default a part of the planning for the offers of alliance. That's strategy.

    _________________
    How using capslock wins arguments:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:03 am 
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 am
    Posts: 1191
    Goshen wrote:
    IMHO, Tram is going to parlay with Parson for a non-aggression treaty, because diplomacy is his inclination, and he has nothing to loose.
    By the way, Trem being a good negotiator is only an informed ability. We've never really seen it in action, we've just been told that he is. And yet both in both parlays with GK we see Trem as a prat, cracking jokes, tossing insults, and in no way taking things seriously. No real diplomat would act that way, regardless of his personal feelings about the persons on the other side of the table.

    Only in his thinkagram with Charlie did he seem to give any real thought to what he was doing, and treat the discussion as a serious matter. And that was only because he was curious about two things: Why Charlie would be giving him free information, and what Parson was all about.

    _________________
    How using capslock wins arguments:
    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:54 am 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary
    Offline
    Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm
    Posts: 1502
    Oberon wrote:
    And for any historian who might claim that the Potsdam Declaration was not 'unconditional surrender' because it did specify some concessions to the Japanese government and people, just recall that the Japanese had absolutely no say in the terms of the Declaration. It was not a negotiation, it was a "here are our terms, take it or leave it, and by leave it we mean we will destroy you."
    Surely that is exactly what a conditional surrender is: surrender, plus conditions. Are you saying that it wasn't a conditional surrender just because it was offered by the US?

    Oberon wrote:
    Had the Japanese not been offered the concessions in the Declaration, one of which promised that the nation of Japan was not going to be destroyed, they probably would have fought on.
    That's why conditional surrender is a real thing; people tend to surrender sooner if they get something in return.

    Oberon wrote:
    And yet both in both parlays with GK we see Trem as a prat, cracking jokes, tossing insults, and in no way taking things seriously. No real diplomat would act that way, regardless of his personal feelings about the persons on the other side of the table.
    Surely there's no point in being diplomatic with the ultimate evil. The very idea of negotiating with Gobwin Knob seems to be a joke to Tramennis, so I wouldn't use that to judge his diplomatic skills. Charlie is someone worth negotiating with, but even then diplomacy is probably mostly wasted when the only thing Charlie will listen to is shmuckers. We'd get to see the real diplomatic Tramennis if we ever get to see him negotiating another alliance against Gobwin Knob.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     
    Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 143 posts ] 

    Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: abb3w, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 11 guests

     
     

     
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot post attachments in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to: