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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Actually once again you go the wrong way with things, all 3 ARE the same, in the reverse direction you're assuming. They all "became" things, because its a high as balls pot dream! We see everything from Jillian's perspective, never reality. We have no idea how much of what she sees reflects reality. Although ironically you kinda support my argument anyway, with your whole position of authority thing. Authority is part of how Jillian percieves Banhammer, building yet another link to bind the pair together.
But again I repeat...this doesn't have to (and arguably shouldn't) make sense to US, so stop trying to explain it. Jillian clearly sees the two as alike, and because it's all in HER head, that is all that matters.

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Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:26 pm 
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    Inner Peace episodes 51, 52, 59, 70, 71 and 72.

    Certainly interesting bit in episode 52 is this:


    Inner Peace Episode 52 wrote:
    If Faq was gone, there was nothing to be alive for. Why fight anything or anyone? No, she would rather croak and have her body used by Mistress Wanda. Let Mistress have her way, she didn’t care. Maybe it would bring her some joy. Send my spirit to the Titans. She would not serve here willingly. But she could say none of that. She could only lay there, crying into the mud. The voices in her head were crying, too. The whole world was crying.

    But not the jester.

    For once, the jester in her mind did not dance and yell. He stood with his hands folded before him, his mouth closed, his expression somber. As her attention fell upon him, it was as if a beam of sunlight fell in a circle around him, and all the wails and cries were muted.

    “Banhammer lives. Do not turn,” said the jester. Then the beam of sunlight brightened, and he faded away.


    Not that the jester had some outside knowledge. Jillian probably was remotely aware of that, but she didn't acknowledge it until then.

    But the first part is the really interesting part.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:31 pm 
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    Yeah that's definitely a hard one to figure out. It could be from outside knowledge (hence why earlier I offered the possibility that the Jester was put there by Wanda or Maxwell or the Great Minds even), but also could have been Jillian sort of promting herself. I imagine that if somehow FAQ had lost all their cities first, then they would ahve gone Barbarian and Banhammer could ahve croaked after, without Jillian feeling herself become a Ruler since she had nothing left to Rule.
    Or, being a Captive prevents you from inheriting, and she might not have noticed Banhammer croak regardless. I don't recall if we have any evidence about this/discussion from Jillian.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:46 pm 
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    Zero, I don't think you're advocating a point anymore. You're insisting that something that people can easily be confused by is not actually confusing if only one understands what you truly meant to say. Lesson learned, Just maybe spell things out more concretely for the benefit of those you're debating with. I figure ya have to assume the other guy is a little slow and needs some educating in a debate, because if they were as clever as Me, then they'd already be agreeing with me! :lol:

    Just because you see someone in a dream, look away, and then they are replaced by someone else in a dream isn't a strong point. If it went from Jester to Betsy or Jester to Jack, I don't think anyone would try arguing they are equivalent, so there's a little confirmation bias. It's not a very strong point either way, but more importantly it doesn't fit the other examples of the Jester. The Jester has a quite consistent vibe to him through her drifting dreams, and bud-induced dreams, and mind-rape. Suggesting it was implanted by someone like Wanda (who wanted her to turn!) or Maxwell (who was mentioned offscreen obliquely?) or GMTTA (who aren't featured at all in the prequel) would stretch belief. The Jester was around before the buds. Occam's razor suggests it has simply been a part of Jillian all along, since we did not see anyone implant it in her nor seen some suggestion of its implantation NOR have a logical rationale for why a third party would implant a thought-man in her head that consistently tells her to act in the interests of her self- and side-preservation.

    I was really hoping the Wiki had a more thorough listing of Jester appearances so this conversation would have been more easily indexable, but alas! Having things requires work, and I'll just whine about it instead of fixing it. =P Thank you, Thoke!

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    SteveMB wrote:
    The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
    Sorry*.
    *no I'm not

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:51 pm 
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    Ok I guess a big problem here is something that I assumed was a clear separation. Where the Jester "came" from, and how Jillian's mind manifests him, are unrelated issues. Like Wanda said when she explained her Book 1 Suggestion on Jillian, the subject rationalizes and makes up their own reasons to follow the spell. Even if the source/creator/whatever of the Jester has no connection to Banhammer/FAQ, Jillian's mind may still fill out the rest of the blanks with thoughts of her father and related topics.
    Now as for who put it there, yes I agree the Wanda and Maxwell are unlikely sources for plot reasons, I was simply offering them as technically viable sources given their skills. Should have been more clear, my b.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:01 pm 
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    Okay, so thanks to Thoke's handy compliation, we can pull together a list of everything the Jester has told Jillian to do.


    • Kill Judy.
    • Not turn to Haffaton.
    • Kill Olive, or failing that, flee and re-establish the side
    • He is pleased when Jack helps Jillian ease out of a bud dream.
    • He is pissed when Olive escapes after the trial.
    • Hunt down Olive, save the king, evacuate the casters.
    • Beware the high elves, since an attack would mean certain doom.

    All of these are consistent with the Jester being an avatar of Jillian's duty, and I can't see another justification for his existence that accounts for all of these elements.

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    SteveMB wrote:
    The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
    Sorry*.
    *no I'm not


    Last edited by Ditto on Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:05 pm 
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    You have to remove "Jester" to make the List syntax work.

    These could also be Duty to something other than Side, just to play Devil's Advocate. An instrument of Fate could want this, provided that doing her Duty to Side also follows her prophecy so to speak.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:06 pm 
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    Finally figured out the formatting, close enough! Not used to fiddling with the code on this board enough, heh

    The jester is consistent with Duty to Faq. This means the Jester could certainly, by extension, be consistent with something that is not Duty To Faq which has interests that happen to coincide, in every demonstrated instance, with Duty to Faq. That suggestion is possible, but again, Occam's Razor.

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    SteveMB wrote:
    The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
    Sorry*.
    *no I'm not

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:16 pm 
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    No problem, shot you a private message explaining another way btw.

    I wouldn't say however that the evil O-word (seriously....debates have raged for weeks about that phrase, it's painful to watch) neccessarily requires it be Duty to FAQ. If Charlie is so interested in it, this suggests it could be something bigger. Of course, all Duty, even to Side, could be a "tool" of the Titans/Fate that he sees as an enemy. So really could go either way IMO.

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    GJC wrote:
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    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:23 pm 
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    If it could go either way, what is the other way? Duty is supported by all appearances of the jester, and that's one way. 'Maybe it's not' is possible, but not really much of an 'other way'. =P Not saying it's unquestionably true or incontrovertible, but if there's a hole in the theory then I want to know so I can address it.

    'Charlie considers Duty an enemy, possibly because it represents one active manifestation of Fate' is a corollary which, while much more speculative, is consistent with what we've seen of Charlie across all three books.

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    SteveMB wrote:
    The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
    Sorry*.
    *no I'm not

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:27 pm 
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    The "other way" is what I already mentioned, Duty to something else or a similar mechanism of Fate at large. We have recently learned that Duty is more complex than just to your Side, so as we already agreed, it's possible that the Jester is acting on behalf of a force who's interests simply coincide with also serving Jillian's conventional Duty.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:17 pm 
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    Gentleman, you're almost there. You are almost back to the beginning. Reading 11 pages of Duty/Fate/Banhammer has been quite the headache. This speculation really ran out of control. What the jester is representative of is stated quite clearly in the episode.

    Come on, Warlord! No, the idea of the warlord. The champion. The fighter. It filled her mind. It took a shape.

    A surprising shape.

    “Trap!” shouted the bald jester. “You fell for it! Get out, get out!”

    The little fat clown was back. In the flower dreams, he was impotent. Here in her headspace, he wielded a warhammer and was smashing bugs on everything.

    Hers a little extra for you...

    Client will submit to treatment involving Healomancy and Thinkamancy with the understanding that these are unproven and largely undocumented procedures, with unknown risks, including (but not limited to) Life, Signamancy, identity, sanity, and basic functioning of client as a unit and a Warlord.

    It's as if Charlie knew what he was looking for.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:32 pm 
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    TheChaplin wrote:
    Come on, Warlord! No, the idea of the warlord. The champion. The fighter. It filled her mind. It took a shape. A surprising shape.
    So the jester appeared when she thought about the idea of a warlord, but that's no guarantee that the jester really represents that. The jester has been pushing his way into her mind quite frequently, so maybe this is just another example of him appearing when he was needed. I find it interesting that the jester was a surprise, since in that same episode we get: "She floated within her own mindspace, within boundaries formed by her own ideas and conceptions. Nothing felt unfamiliar in here, the way it did with the dreams..."

    Remember that any theory about the jester should account for not just the jester's behaviour and appearances. We also need to have at least some flimsy explanation for why Charlie destroyed it and why it was called a tool of the enemy.

    I have a crazy unfounded theory that I can't shake. Suppose that the jester really is a natural part of Jillian, like her Duty or her concept of Warlord. In that case, Charlie considers the inner jester that drives warlords to war to be tools of the enemy, and that suggests that war itself is what Charlie fights against. Charlie was a normal ruler of a normal side, locked in conflicts as all normal sides are, but then he gets the dish and suddenly his awareness expands to see all of Erfworld for what it is, and suddenly he's not interested in being a ruler anymore. He withdraws into solitude. At first he does it in the normal way by asking to be left alone, but then Olive tries to kill him and he flees to his own private city where Erfworld's constant fighting can never touch him. Maybe he works as a mercenary just to get the shmuckers that he needs to keep the fighting away from himself, or maybe he's working on a long plan to eradicate war totally in some brilliant final move once he has collected enough resources. Wouldn't it be weird if Parson and Charlie ended up as allies someday.

    Of course that theory can't be right because it doesn't explain why Charlie would warn Betsy away from discovering the enemy.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:35 pm 
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    Ditto wrote:
    • Kill Judy.
    • Not turn to Haffaton.
    • Kill Olive, or failing that, flee and re-establish the side
    • He is pleased when Jack helps Jillian ease out of a bud dream.
    • He is pissed when Olive escapes after the trial.
    • Hunt down Olive, save the king, evacuate the casters.
    • Beware the high elves, since an attack would mean certain doom.

    Killing Judy, or Olive are all consistent with a manifestation of Fate. Surviving, keeping or acquiring the ability to kill Olive is consistent with being an instrument of fate. For example establishing a side. Evacuating the casters is consistent since Wanda is such an instrument of fate. That only leaves saving the king. However, I don't think duty would tell Jillian to abandon the king. That should be Duty's highest priority. Fate could put the king as a secondary goal, or see it as a potential stepping stone to a goal.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:27 pm 
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    Fate may well be the larger actor here, and Active Fate (as opposed to Fate Force, the magics tied to fate) is consistent with my theory on what Charlie is fighting against. I still think the Jester is inherent to Jillian, and we know that commander-units have Duty inside them. Fate, however, is an external force, not intrinsic to any one unit. I think it makes sense that Jillian's Duty is represented by the jester, since she recognizes it as familiar rather than placing it as something foreign.

    Fate had a specific action in mind when Jillian was fated to kill the ruler of Haffaton. Jillian may not have known which one, but Fate did. 'Kill Judy, so that Olive will then be Ruler, so you can then kill her!' is starting to stretch. The jester did not say 'Go kill Olive!' when she was in the dream after being freed, but rather 'Save everyone! Or else, save at least yourself!' Killing Olive would have cut to the chase. And again, the jester only suggested Fleeing and abandoning the king when Jillian said that saving him was impossible. Consistent with Duty, since the king is not synonymous with the side - the Transylvito semi-mutiny mirrors that.

    It might just happen that Fate in all instances has coincided with what Jillian's Duty would have happened to be in those cases, every time, but all that does (if taken as granted) is confirm my theory and leave the extension, that Fate is the actor at hand, as a legitimate possibility.

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    SteveMB wrote:
    The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
    Sorry*.
    *no I'm not

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:10 am 
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    Noip gives his epileptic twee a shake.

    What the Jester really represents... is Jillian's sense of humor!*

    She was much more fun in the past than the present. :p

    *In no way is this intended as a serious interpretation or analysis.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:10 am 
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    JUST A MINUTE!.

    There are two Oberons!.

    Except one is a Naughtyberon, and the other is a Zeroberon.

    I just thought it was one loony-toon guy arguing with himself or maybe a performance artist or a Dadaist. But it is two!.

    Whatisgoingonhere,Iamconfused.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:21 am 
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    Tonot wrote:
    JUST A MINUTE!.

    There are two Oberons!.

    Except one is a Naughtyberon, and the other is a Zeroberon.

    I just thought it was one loony-toon guy arguing with himself or maybe a performance artist or a Dadaist. But it is two!.

    Whatisgoingonhere,Iamconfused.


    Yes, there's an oh-beron and a zeroberon. They are different people.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:02 am 
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    Denar wrote:
    [Zeroberon] You are unclear in a lot of your posts as to what you actually mean. This is picked up by a lot of people. You seem to think my first post was talking directly to you, when indeed many people HAVE said that they think the jester IS banhammer, but you seem to think that - out of the blue - I must have been saying "Oberon thinks that this is LITERALLY this". You say I'm making a straw man out of your argument (whatever THAT is, because I've yet to see it), but then admit that you're in the habit of putting words into people's mouths. "Completely ignores my entire point, and once again oversimplifies the entire discussion." Just how big is your persecution complex, oberon?


    Any historian will tell you that I'm no fan of Zeroberon. He stole my name, and we've argued over many topics. But I try to be fair, even to my enemies (and I don't really thing of Zeoberon as my enemy, in case anyone cares. I really don't have any enemies, unless it's all on their side. I hold no animosity towards anyone). I think you've misrepresented him. Just a tad.

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    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:28 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Denar wrote:
    [Zeroberon] You are unclear in a lot of your posts as to what you actually mean. This is picked up by a lot of people. You seem to think my first post was talking directly to you, when indeed many people HAVE said that they think the jester IS banhammer, but you seem to think that - out of the blue - I must have been saying "Oberon thinks that this is LITERALLY this". You say I'm making a straw man out of your argument (whatever THAT is, because I've yet to see it), but then admit that you're in the habit of putting words into people's mouths. "Completely ignores my entire point, and once again oversimplifies the entire discussion." Just how big is your persecution complex, oberon?


    Any historian will tell you that I'm no fan of Zeroberon. He stole my name, and we've argued over many topics. But I try to be fair, even to my enemies (and I don't really thing of Zeoberon as my enemy, in case anyone cares. I really don't have any enemies, unless it's all on their side. I hold no animosity towards anyone). I think you've misrepresented him. Just a tad.



    But, but, . . . but, HOW my friend, HOW are we to keep track of which side of which topic which of you are fighting?.

    Wait, that should be "Youse" or "Yous" or something. The Yous?. The of yous?. *electronic frying noise*

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