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 Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:28 pm 
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imgran wrote:
You really don't need to get too exotic to figure out a reason why that would happen.

It's far less likely to be insidious magical influence from the summoning spell as it is to be simple use-it-or-lose it.


Sorry, losing the ability due to time-lapse memory loss is not the same as forgetting the function. You may forget a lot of trig from school, but 80 years later when you die of old age, you'll still remember the purpose of trig and what the name means. And even if you forget the formulas. Remembering the function means you could reverse engineer the formulas given some time and patience, and a lot of scratch paper.

I took a college entrance exam last week after not seeing a math class since 1988. But since the test was un-timed I sat there and reverse engineered the Pythagorean theorem in order to solve a word problem. I couldn't remember the theorem but since I had spent some effort understanding why the theorem worked, it wasn't that hard to re-build the equation. That 20 question test took me about 4 hours to finish but my score was worth the effort.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:41 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    nope. Uncroaked don't regain curiosity. Check out Ansom. He isn't curious. He thinks he already knows the answer.

    That's not uncroaking, that's just Ansom. He's always 'known' the answer.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:54 pm 
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    Somehow I kind of imagine Jack displaying on the table a system prompt as he picks up the figurines and other items:

    Quote:
    >_ ...
    Would you like to play a game
    ...

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:07 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    imgran wrote:
    You really don't need to get too exotic to figure out a reason why that would happen.

    It's far less likely to be insidious magical influence from the summoning spell as it is to be simple use-it-or-lose it.


    Sorry, losing the ability due to time-lapse memory loss is not the same as forgetting the function. You may forget a lot of trig from school, but 80 years later when you die of old age, you'll still remember the purpose of trig and what the name means. And even if you forget the formulas. Remembering the function means you could reverse engineer the formulas given some time and patience, and a lot of scratch paper.

    I took a college entrance exam last week after not seeing a math class since 1988. But since the test was un-timed I sat there and reverse engineered the Pythagorean theorem in order to solve a word problem. I couldn't remember the theorem but since I had spent some effort understanding why the theorem worked, it wasn't that hard to re-build the equation. That 20 question test took me about 4 hours to finish but my score was worth the effort.

    That may be true, for you. But Parson isn't you. His mind works in it's own way. Besides, he was just making a passing comment when he said he didn't remember what exactly trigonometry was. He probably could have remembered had he taken a few minutes to think about it. I know it took me a couple minutes to remember, and my last trigonometry class was only in 2004. :P

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:13 pm 
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    Jack become cooler and cooler i hope they become closer and be friends. so we can be sure he is loyal to parson not wanda not barbarian chick. or not stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:27 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Sorry, losing the ability due to time-lapse memory loss is not the same as forgetting the function. You may forget a lot of trig from school, but 80 years later when you die of old age, you'll still remember the purpose of trig and what the name means. And even if you forget the formulas. Remembering the function means you could reverse engineer the formulas given some time and patience, and a lot of scratch paper.

    I took a college entrance exam last week after not seeing a math class since 1988. But since the test was un-timed I sat there and reverse engineered the Pythagorean theorem in order to solve a word problem. I couldn't remember the theorem but since I had spent some effort understanding why the theorem worked, it wasn't that hard to re-build the equation. That 20 question test took me about 4 hours to finish but my score was worth the effort.


    What are you talking about? I got a high A in my trig class and I don't remember a SINGLE THING off the top of my head over what it was about! And I am a geek, and I am not terrible at math either! I think you will find MOST people who took trig, knew it, got A's in it, consider themselves geeks, don't have a clue what it is about a few years later.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:31 pm 
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    Count me in among the people whose "leet" trig skills have somehow evaporated in a few short years.

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    Last edited by DevilDan on Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:47 pm 
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    I can't remember any of the names for the identities or even most of the functions. However, after double checking it online, even seeing a problem that uses it would jog my memory more or less to full proficiency. I'd take a few of the functions I do remember (and forgot they were part of trigonometry), and reverse-engineer most any answer I need from there. Now, I won't be able to give you a name of pretty much any of it, and if I don't have a calculator, doing more than basic angles (like sine of 38 degrees) is way beyond me without being given what the formula is for approximating that.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:05 pm 
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    Yes but that requires, say, having a formulated trig problem in front of you. But coming up with it cold? Never. Hell. I don't think I could remember it even IF I had a trig problem in front of me!

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:08 pm 
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    All of this answers that old question about "when am I going to use this in real life," I suppose. :twisted:

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:21 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    All of this answers that old question about "when am I going to use this in real life," I suppose. :twisted:


    But is Erfworld real life, or is it just fantasy?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:11 pm 
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    caught in a landslide?

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:59 pm 
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    fehler wrote:
    caught in a landslide?


    No escape from reality, I guess.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:35 pm 
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    Anton Gaist wrote:
    fehler wrote:
    caught in a landslide?


    No escape from reality, I guess.

    Open your eyes and look around, already.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:45 pm 
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    cloudbreaker wrote:
    That may be true, for you. But Parson isn't you. His mind works in it's own way. Besides, he was just making a passing comment when he said he didn't remember what exactly trigonometry was. He probably could have remembered had he taken a few minutes to think about it. I know it took me a couple minutes to remember, and my last trigonometry class was only in 2004. :P


    I don't believe that my manner of thinking is all that special. If I could do it, anyone could. The main problem with people not being able to do things is usually a matter of them not believing in themselves.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:24 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    BarGamer wrote:
    THERE'S the balancing factor for the ArkenPliers! Having to forcibly "change their minds" through some aspect of Loyalty to the wielder of the ArkenPliers, Decrypted can no longer think creatively or think in ways contrary to the wielder's beliefs, do anything other than serve the wielder, or level up!


    First off, we've got no indication that they can't think creatively, since we don't have any evidence that they were thinking creatively prior to being croaked.
    Second, we know uncroaked can level, and decrypted appear to be a higher form of uncroaked, so while there is no hard evidence either way, there's circumstantial evidence to lean towards the probability that decrypted probably can level.
    Third, why do the ArkenPliers have to be balanced? They're an artifact. There are plenty of examples of items in games that are just broken once you get them.


    My impression was that decrypted we not uncroaked. Also not a higher form of uncroaked. The earth fantasy/mythology equivalent of "decrypted" could be "raised" or "resurrected". "Reincarnated" would probably be "repopped".

    Spoiler: show
    We have already seen true wove overpower Wanda's foolproof control spells. I am fully expecting some sappy scene were Jillina turns Ansom.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:49 am 
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    Parson wore a calculator watch. (And still does; it's integrated into his Mathamancy bracer.)

    I might be able to buy that someone who wears a calculator watch could forget the details of trig... but what it is, what it's for? Erf's messing with his brain.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:12 am 
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    i have a scientific calculator on my desk from 1998 when i was in the higher level maths class at high school.

    and i can not remember which maths trigonometry was. i use the calculator to work out how many divisions of something i'll need for my 3d models. it's fallen out of favour for the calculator key on my keyboard.

    so ten years of not using trig has left me wondering which formula's it covers. so i find myself in exactly the position your arguing isn't possible.

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:05 am 
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    As far as I can see noone has pointed out why Parson should be familiar with at least the concepts of trigonometry. As a designer of wargames he would realize that distance cannot be measured accurately along diagonals in a discretized system. AD&D uses a square system but says that every other diaganol move counts double - effectively saying that the square root of 2 is 1.5. Wargamers often prefer hexagonal based systems because they are a better approximation. Parson seems to belong to that school. The striking thing about erfworld is that things which are put into a game as an abstraction or approximation (hexes, moves, popping of units, bonuses, skill points etc) are taken as natural by the inhabitants. This in contrast to the order of the stick, where the characters seem to understand that their world is a cartoon based on the a game and not a primary reality. Altogeher this is strong evidence that Parson is being integrated into erfworld bit by bit (or stat by stat?).

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     Post subject: Re: Summer Updates - 038
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:19 am 
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    moose o death wrote:
    i have a scientific calculator on my desk from 1998 when i was in the higher level maths class at high school.

    and i can not remember which maths trigonometry was. i use the calculator to work out how many divisions of something i'll need for my 3d models. it's fallen out of favour for the calculator key on my keyboard.

    so ten years of not using trig has left me wondering which formula's it covers. so i find myself in exactly the position your arguing isn't possible.


    No, you're supporting my argument that forgetting formulas is normal. Are you trying to argue that you forgot the terms sine, cosine and what they were used for, even if is normal to forget which is which and how to apply them. Heck, I never took trig and I know that they are used somehow to calculate the length of a side of a triangle if you only know the length of one side. I can even think of RW examples where such an ability might be useful. Wondering which foruma covers something is not the same as wondering if there is a formula for something. Knowing something can be done is half of doing it.

    Quote:
    As far as I can see noone has pointed out why Parson should be familiar with at least the concepts of trigonometry.
    Because he admits taking it in High School?

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