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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:59 am 
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New One is up.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:17 am 
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    Holy freaking boop.

    I saw this coming, but I didn't see it going down like this.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:27 am 
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    I'm a little lost. Just how much of a personality erasure did Jillian suffer, and how much of that really was justified by the need to combat heroin addiction?

    I can't tell if Betsy was merely ruthlessly efficient at her legitimate task, or if she deliberatly went overboard so she could 'remake' Jillian into what BETSY thought Jillian should act like.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:33 am 
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    Heh. And here I thought Charlie was going to sabotage the first attempt and bring in a "Contractor Provided Healomancer" who wouldn't care about what Charlie did to her.

    I like the connection between the honeycomb of aggression and the hex-space nature of the world. Quite apiary-apropos. :D

    The Jester was a Tool, eh? A Tool of "the only enemy worth fighting"? So, while everyone else in Erfworld is playing out the stories of Man vs Man, Charlie is engaged in Man vs God?

    Ooh, time to really speculate wildly!
    1. The Jester was a Tool of the Titans
    2. His warhammer was the Arkenhammer
    3. Jillian was originally primed to become attuned to the 'Hammer
    4. Charlie eating the Jester removed that potential; this caused it to manifest in a unit elsewhere (Stanley!)
    5. Charlie is removing the potential to attune because he likes having a monopoly on Arkentool usage
    I admit, I'm not sure how/why he didn't do this to Wanda. Probably thought she'd die in a few turns anyway, and his contracts won't let him dip into her head again.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:38 am 
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    Huh, so apparently the Jester was external.

    I wonder if Charlie made Jillian stop being a player character.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:40 am 
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    Well at least Jillian got a good price on her soul - "curing" Wanda is probably worth it.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure Betsy was the one who wanted to remove various other parts of Jillian's personality, specifically her aggression. She had expressed horror/disgust of it before.

    Interested to see other people's ideas of the Jester and of whom/what he was a "tool." I can't really figure it out.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:45 am 
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    Gorky wrote:
    Well at least Jillian got a good price on her soul - "curing" Wanda is probably worth it.


    Dunno about that. Betsy and Charlie both would have their reasons for performing similar lobotomancy on Wanda, and she too went through the "cure" process.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:48 am 
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    Quote:
    “What was it?” asked Betsy. “A tool of what enemy?”

    “The only one worth fighting,” said the insects. “Don’t ever find out. Trussst me.”


    My take: Charlie fights the "Titans" or their instruments (i.e. fate), who influence Erfworlders to live in a state of perpetual war.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:51 am 
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    I might hate Betsy more than any other character in the series now. Charlie at least had reason to remove memories from Jillian's mind. It's a villainous thing to do, but understandable. Betsy choose to rape Jillian's mind, tearing apart who she is, just because Jillian popped a warrior.

    Betsy's just desserts can't come quickly enough as far as I'm concerned.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:52 am 
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    It's fairly obvious that the jester was Jillian's free will or at least her independence. The author even points it out in the very next line.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:15 am 
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    Lecan wrote:
    It's fairly obvious that the jester was Jillian's free will or at least her independence. The author even points it out in the very next line.


    I don't think so, because why would Charlie say that it was a "tool" (very significant word choice there, I think) of the only enemy worth fighting, and warn Betsy to never find out? I think it must be because the true nature of the jester - of the "enemy" - must be something that would totally upset and destroy FAQ philosophy, which I can only imagine at the moment to be the Titans, or some other facet of morality.

    I don't know what you mean by the very next line. All it shows to me is that Jillian has exerted her strength to try helping/listening to the jester, and now she is feeling quite defeated as betsy/charlie access all her memories and thoughts unhindered.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:18 am 
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    I think there are several possibilities here, all equally possible based on current evidence but listed in order of my personal opinion of likelihood:
    1. Charlie is lying, he is simply claiming there is some enemy so that he has an excuse to do something to Jillian. The possible motive could be that he knows some part of Jillian's Fate and is trying to avoid it by removing whatever part of her personality the Jester represents (free will, instincts, ect).
    2. Charlie is speaking metaphorically, the “enemy” is actually an idea or concept that Charlie wants to eradicate. Based on the Jester’s behavior, and Charlie’s past shift away from world domination, we can infer this idea is something aggressive.
    3. Since in the past the Jester has seemed to represent Banhammer, perhaps it is Jillian’s idea of her father formed by her own mind. Whether Banhammer actually has the qualities of the Jester deep down somewhere or not, this perception could motivate Jillian to act a certain way that Charlie doesn’t want her to. This is similar to #1 & 2, just a bit more specific.
    4. There actually is some enemy interfering on Jillian’s behalf and opposing Charlie. Possibilities include:
      • Wanda (she knows Thinkamancy, was present when the Jester first appeared, and the Jester has shared information that Wanda would have also known.)
      • Maxwell (I don’t think Wanda ever actually said he croaked, simply that Olive let him become lost. It’s possible he’s still out there somewhere, or that he continues to exist mentally despite his body croaking.)
      • GMTTA (We know they oppose Charlie at least in the future, so they certainly have motive and means)
      • The Titans (Fits with the Hammer idea)
    Another big question on my mind is whether Charlie actually violated the contract...Being a Carny we can believe that's within his power, I'm just curious about whether what he did was allowed under the contract as-is. True the contract covered unknown risks from it being an untested procedure, ect ect...but she only consented to curing dependency on Flower Power. What he did wasn't a risk or unforeseen consequence, it was a deliberate action unrelated to Flower-Power and therefor outside the contract scope, right?

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:24 am 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Heh. And here I thought Charlie was going to sabotage the first attempt and bring in a "Contractor Provided Healomancer" who wouldn't care about what Charlie did to her.

    I like the connection between the honeycomb of aggression and the hex-space nature of the world. Quite apiary-apropos. :D

    The Jester was a Tool, eh? A Tool of "the only enemy worth fighting"? So, while everyone else in Erfworld is playing out the stories of Man vs Man, Charlie is engaged in Man vs God?

    Ooh, time to really speculate wildly!
    1. The Jester was a Tool of the Titans
    2. His warhammer was the Arkenhammer
    3. Jillian was originally primed to become attuned to the 'Hammer
    4. Charlie eating the Jester removed that potential; this caused it to manifest in a unit elsewhere (Stanley!)
    5. Charlie is removing the potential to attune because he likes having a monopoly on Arkentool usage
    I admit, I'm not sure how/why he didn't do this to Wanda. Probably thought she'd die in a few turns anyway, and his contracts won't let him dip into her head again.


    Your own realization refutes what you speculate what the Jester was. If Charlie did a similar procedure on Wanda, he would ripped out her ability to attune also. However since he did not then, he did not now.

    My own thought on it is simplier. Charlie fights Fate. The Jester is a mechanism of Fate to help it achieve its ends.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:25 am 
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    Well if there was any doubt that Betsy was a complete monster they can be safely cast aside. The Erf will be a better, lessd evil place when Faq is destroyed. I'd have said that before this update, but after this...

    The jester, I was thinking it was basically Gillian's ability to think intelligently. The part of her that knew better, personified by hallucinations.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:26 am 
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    Also this probably the last Erfworld artwork from Xin. :-(

    It was a delight to see Xin grow from a good artist to an extraordinary artist. I feel the complexity of this piece is a good swan song for her.

    Best wishes Xin.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:35 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Another big question on my mind is whether Charlie actually violated the contract...Being a Carny we can believe that's within his power, I'm just curious about whether what he did was allowed under the contract as-is. True the contract covered unknown risks from it being an untested procedure, ect ect...but she only consented to curing dependency on Flower Power. What he did wasn't a risk or unforeseen consequence, it was a deliberate action unrelated to Flower-Power and therefor outside the contract scope, right?


    I think there is no break of contract here, nor have we observed Charlie breaking any contract before. He seems to rather be a skillful contract writer.

    Notice the last sentence in the contract:
    "Client expressly grants permission to Contractor and Healomancer to apply changes as needed to the functioning of Client’s mind, at Contractor and Healomancer’s sole discretion."

    It is worded so that he can pretty much do what he wants, and so does Betsy, at his "sole discretion". I see no explicit conditions here as to what is permitted. Sure, we'd assume that these changes must fit the goal stated in the previous point, but it is not worded explicitly.

    Also, I just want to nitpick: it's "etc.", not "ect".

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:39 am 
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    Also, random poignant moment/exit....I'm assuming that bubble in the foreground is Merika with Jillian... :cry:
    So even though it seemed like Jillian would never forget Merika, thus making her Stone a silly gesture, I guess we see now that it's good Wanda made one. Makes me wonder if the stone garden will/does survive today. It was built with Dirtamancy outside of a city so it must survive the destruction of Haffaton...but who holds that territory now?

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:43 am 
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    Has no one suggested that the Jester is Jillian's personification of Duty? I can see Charlie, as an overlord and carnymancer with his arkendish-aided understanding of the many layers of Thinkamancy, considering Duty as the great unkillable foe. It's an external force that is hopelessly internal, steering your actions even when you're an overlord. I imagine that must drive him mad, thinking about any level of control he can't weasel his way out of.

    Jillian from Book 1 has plenty of free will. In fact, I'd say she's got nothing BUT free will, especially since she has no side to consider. She keeps what commitments she chooses to value, and that's that. Upon founding a new side through Book 2, she's always kind of squiffy about whether she can or should do a good job as queen, and seems confused when there certain obvious choices that benefit (or don't-damage) her new-Faq because she is weighing those options on equal terms with Love for Ansom or Hate for Stanley or anything else - normally, you would have Duty riding shotgun giving you a solid nudge in a certain direction.

    Charlie doesn't care about the Titanic mandate for royalty (though he probably scoffs at it) or world domination (nice thought it would be - it hinges on a side full of people, and people have motivations, and people have Duty. He just keeps mindless golems and functionally-addicted Archons, and that's IT.) He wants his slice of the pie, strictly for him, because he does what he wants.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:45 am 
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    gobe wrote:
    Notice the last sentence in the contract:
    "Client expressly grants permission to Contractor and Healomancer to apply changes as needed to the functioning of Client’s mind, at Contractor and Healomancer’s sole discretion."
    True, but that is pursuant to the stated scope of curing dependancy (emphasis added to illustrate my point);
    "Contractor will apply proprietary magicks (Arkendish) to link with Healomancer and fashion such spells and procedures to Client as are necessary to substantially diminish or eliminate Client’s dependency on Flower Power."
    The purpose of the link overall and resulting spells is clearly stated and limited, which then sets the tone for how subsequent clauses and smaller details are interpreted. As written, I think Charlie did violate contract. Carnymancy would involve making that argument you just did, separating the clause you quoted from the overal scope. See what I'm saying? Out of context, your quote allows what Charlie did but in context it does not, so I think that's the kind of thing you do with Carnymancy, take the clauses out of context.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:52 am 
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    It does look like that villain Betsy will make her forget Marika. Probably all the others too.

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