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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:48 am 
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Beeskee wrote:
Also, if the religious books are written by the gods, how can branches such as Scorism exist?



Well, you realise that before the age of Rationality, before the Enlightenment, every single religious book, in almost all religions, was "written" by the God/s ?. And by that I mean that everyone absolutely believed that was a fact* and mere commonplace occurrence that could be measured meant nothing to this "fact".

You are to consider how very many schisms and branches of , to pick one only, Christianity have existed. A mere hundred years after the Carpenter died, the church big-wigs got together and had a furious debate which ended in three whole cities being destroyed and their people killed or enslaved, because they were "heretics". And yet if you had asked either branch, their version of the book was "written by god". And they would have believed that just as firmly as the people in Erfworld believe their books "Pop straight from the Book-Press of the Titans".

* Well, I suppose not everyone really believed it, but they either said they did or they burnt or were impaled, so it amounted to the same thing in the end, give or take some various brutal executions and tortures. Though Godly tortures and executions, of course, extremely sanctified and pure ones.

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:18 am 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Beeskee wrote:
    Also, if the religious books are written by the gods, how can branches such as Scorism exist?

    It's not like the Scriptures explain everything. And even if they did, there can be multiple interpretations for an answer.


    Yes, the Word of the Titans need not cover everything. And besides as this forum repeatedly shows, having a common canon does not prevent different interpretations.

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:24 am 
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    The important difference is that in Erfworld, it's potentially true. The religious books may very well pop into existence like units or supplies, pre-authored by the Titans themselves. Or not, it hasn't been said specifically. :D

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:16 pm 
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    MadZuri wrote:
    Beeskee wrote:
    Do other books pop the same way?
    All books pop this way, except for the ones Parson has written.


    Not all books - we know Banhammer has written books.

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:17 pm 
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    Jack. Jack Jack Jack.

    Your timing SUCKS. O M G IT SUCKS.

    How the heck did you think THAT was the right time for "Let's get fooly with the foolamancer"?

    Epic, nearly deadly battle just over, epic victory currently being handed away by her ruler who apparently specializes in "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory", herself nearly disbanded over her opposition to it, and at this very moment, she's in the active process of futilely fleeing her orders to seal the aforementioned handing-away-of-victory to a massively powerful, enigmatic, deceitful, and likely long-term hostile side?

    Jack, I say this as a friend and even though I don't like Jillian much (or at all), I am someone who really wants you to be happy, so please take this message in the spirit it's intended.

    Don't you think maybe, just maybe, SHE HAS OTHER THINGS ON HER MIND RIGHT NOW FFS?

    /argh

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:39 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    Just imagine the annoyance it would cause if units from 200 different unallied sides entered the same hex and thus got only 3.6 minutes of turn each!
    Turns don't mean much when you're in the same hex with your enemies since combat is real-time, and time speeds up when you are moving between hexes. We don't know exactly how much time speeds up, so I guess that the speed-up varies depending on the length of the turn so that each unit always has enough time to use all of its move. So if the turn were only 3.6 minutes long, units would probably zoom across the hexes faster than a bullet because they operate on super-fast time where seconds seem like hours.

    Time is relative compared to other hexes. So on hexes where there aren't 200 unallied sides, time might speed up, but on the hex where there are, the turns would probably be very short. Also, within a battlezone, time is probably still split into different time slices so that the other sides can use those other hexes and not be night time. So even if time for your scouts is moving faster, a time limit would be placed on how much time they can spend in each hex before it runs out.

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:42 pm 
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    LordAcme wrote:
    Jack. Jack Jack Jack.

    (etc)


    Yes. BUT he wouldn't have done noticeably better any other time. He's not her type.

    What he had going for her now was their recently fighting together. It was bonding, and if not followed up on, wouldn't go anywhere. So, it's not unreasonable for him to think that this was the best time.

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:08 pm 
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    It's interesting that no one has mentioned the possible implication that the drug buds allow glimpses into Stupid world. Has that already been discussed before? It's probably how Charlie knows popular culture references and why he keeps a supply of buds at hand.

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:27 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    So the Court of Faq are all going to get on High Horses? Can't say I'm surprised.


    Indeed they are, indeed they are.

    And they'll probably be really high, swaying back and forth, like the high elves.


    I doubt that. The units a city can build seem to be set when the city is built, and determined by the side that built it initially. Unless I am totally wrong, which is a possibility...

    Anyhoo. the Emerald City predates Olive, and that type of "high" unit is more Olives style, not the Wizards. In fact, Haffatons, own unit lists may not have any really "Olive themed" units in its build lists, because Olive did not found that side either. The Tennenbaum and PvZ plants appear to be created by her as a Florist, not produced by a city, and the High elves were natural allies. Any unique Haffaton units may not have been poped once Olice became Chief Warlord, as Olive did not see their worth. (Olive did not seem to see the worth in anything but Olive, and by extension things similar to Olive)

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:24 pm 
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    bldysabba wrote:
    It's interesting that no one has mentioned the possible implication that the drug buds allow glimpses into Stupid world. Has that already been discussed before? It's probably how Charlie knows popular culture references and why he keeps a supply of buds at hand.

    Both of those have been discussed extensively. People have assumed and argued that either the Arkendish or the possibility that Charlie is from Stupidworld explains the culteral references , and that he is addicted to the buds explains why he keeps them around.
    I like the idea that he gained the knowledge from the buds over any other theory now. Thank you for that.

    Also, yes, Banhammer wrote books. Are there any other authors in that world? Did those books pop when the side was refounded?

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:29 pm 
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    I recall a reference to books filled with Overlord Firebaugh's political knowledge.

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     Post Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:38 pm 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    The important difference is that in Erfworld, it's potentially true. The religious books may very well pop into existence like units or supplies, pre-authored by the Titans themselves. Or not, it hasn't been said specifically. :D



    Titans plural, right?. So potentially more than one author and that equals more than one message*. And that isn't taking into account a potential Loki Liesmith in the ranks of the Titans, or a Mysterious Stranger in their Ethical midst, who could be counted on to sneak down to the press and print off devilish bibles to sow woe and deception.
    Or just the simple fact that they might be making the whole continuum as a test bed or a torture chamber or an experiment, all of which raise the potential of them writing books of "scripture" that contain, or are even entirely, falsehood.
    LordAcme wrote:
    How the heck did you think THAT was the right time for "Let's get fooly with the foolamancer"?

    ~~~~~

    Don't you think maybe, just maybe, SHE HAS OTHER THINGS ON HER MIND RIGHT NOW FFS?

    /argh


    What, thoughts such as "Might be dead tomorrow and I feel small and alone?

    Maybe she has read some famous, or even not so famous peoples last, dying words?,

    "Damn it, I wish I had of had much more sex".

    ;)

    * Looking through only the Greek pantheon, you get twenty different messages of what "god" wants from you. Some want rosemary and rue smoke, others spilt wine, others again, blood and valour.

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     Post Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:25 pm 
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    zbeeblebrox wrote:
    Heh, where do you think those Stupid Meal lessons came from? Dumbed down versions of scripture, I'd say
    C'mon now! You know better than that. It is literally impossible to 'dumb down' scripture. It is as dumb already as it is possible to be, and that includes all scripture, both Erfworldian or Stupid Worldian.

    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Dr. Phil could make a career analyzing Jillian.
    Another foolish statement! Dr. Phil is not capable of actually analyzing anything other than how to be a shameless self-promoter. "Dr." Phil is as much a doctor as Fox is a news outlet: Both are purveyors of entertainment only.

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     Post Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:06 pm 
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    bldysabba wrote:
    It's interesting that no one has mentioned the possible implication that the drug buds allow glimpses into Stupid world. Has that already been discussed before? It's probably how Charlie knows popular culture references and why he keeps a supply of buds at hand.


    Why just Stupidworld? Could be a lot of worlds.

    What trimancer link would Charlie need for a Summon Cthulhu scroll?

    And what would his stats be?

    Move: Unlimited, when the stars are right
    Hits: 100 - Reforms at the start of the next turn if killed. (He was pwnt by a steamboat iirc)
    Combat: Devours 1d20 units every attack
    Defense: 5(Steam boat shows he has a glass jaw)
    Specials: Caster(Carnymancer), any unit viewing Cthulhu goes mad, unlimited thinkagrams

    And Titans help me, it was a struggle to keep from adding 'Tentacoo Wape' to that list.

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     Post Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:14 pm 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    What trimancer link would Charlie need for a Summon Cthulhu scroll?

    And what would his stats be?

    Move: Unlimited, when the stars are right
    Hits: 100 - Reforms at the start of the next turn if killed. (He was pwnt by a steamboat iirc)
    Combat: Devours 1d20 units every attack
    Defense: 5(Steam boat shows he has a glass jaw)
    Specials: Caster(Carnymancer), any unit viewing Cthulhu goes mad, unlimited thinkagrams
    Weaknesses: The complete fecklessness of his followers; an apparent inability to destroy mankind despite being able to do so by simply appearing on the planet; Japanese schoolgirls.

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    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:56 pm 
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    MadZuri wrote:
    I like the idea that he gained the knowledge from the buds over any other theory now. Thank you for that.


    I thought it was hinted at very strongly by this passage, (and some of the bits that come after it)

    Quote:
    but her mind was still twisted from dreams. It seemed to want to fill in the shadows with things that weren’t there.

    Things that... probably weren’t there, anyway. She hoped.

    In this solitude, this darkness, she had to wonder if what she’d seen in flower dreams might be real. Could it be that the buds opened a window into something? Somewhere?

    but nobody was discussing it in the thread, so figured it had probably been already discussed.

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     Post Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:27 pm 
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    AFAIK nobody mentioned that possibility. You were the first to post about it, and it certainly seems likely. To me, it seems most likely.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:47 am 
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    Check out this post from a fan's conversation with Rob at Gencon 2013 regarding books, Signamancy, and more.

    viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6248&p=102200#p101764

    Here is the relevant bit. The post goes onto a number of topics.

    Exate wrote:
    Books are a form of Signamancy, because they are by their very nature information represented physically, which is what signamancy is all about. Libraries in cities normally automatically update by natural magic only when the city is built/upgraded, but if you have a Signamancer they can bring them up to date (recall that Parson said libraries have old battle records, etc. for referencing). Presumably this applies to naturally popped maps and such as well, as they are also physical representations of information, and thus Signs by nature.

    Libraries in every capital, or possibly every city, naturally pop with a complete copy of the Titans' Scripture. It is identical in all instances. Because everyone is working from exactly the same base information, all religious conflicts are based upon differences of interpretation- or more likely, practical reasons being masked by religious ones.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:38 pm 
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    MadZuri wrote:
    AFAIK nobody mentioned that possibility. You were the first to post about it, and it certainly seems likely. To me, it seems most likely.


    Why do you think it seems likely?

    The effects of the buds seemed like drug-induced hallucinations, not portals to something actually real. Jillian is obviously unsure, since she's the addicted one.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:18 pm 
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    I think a significant bit of information we have been given is that FAQ has been using the Predictamancer/Lookamancer/Foolamancy combination for a very long time. I think it also tells us that King Banhammer might be the oldest character we have yet to come across (if we don't include Charlie/The Wizard) if we equate a turn = 1 day in terms of measurement that makes him at least 35.6 years old. Have I missed/forgotten any updates where it indicates any of the current roster are older than this?

    It also fairly strongly indicates that Signamancy is what dictates how old a character looks instead of his actual age. If we compare Slately who was just over eight years old but looks 60 years + in comparison to Banhammer who looks ironically in his mid-30's.

    I also find that this potentially explains why Banhammer behaves the way he does. In a pre-Parson Erf the idea of one side worlds, peace on erf and the like are fairly far-fetched and distant notions. As Haffaton shows us even if you have someone very clever in charge the world works against you in very constricting ways if you try to push beyond 15ish cities with normal Erf resources (it is a failing of theirs they benched their attuned arkentool wielder) juxtapose this with Gobwin Knob that has two arkentools, an eldritch abomination from another dimension and now potentially an entire cabal of high level Thinkamancers and we're still not sure if they can pull it off.

    Banhammer I think is humble enough to know (despite his general pomposity) that he is no strategic genius to bring about world peace and he had the means available to largely opt out of the cycle of brutality and killing that is the norm for Erfworld and this strategy of peace has kept him and his loved ones safe for over thirty years.

    He might have been a bit of a pompous buffoon but his record on survival is so far second only to Charlie which would really make me question how wise Jillian is really being here about wanting to start a mega-side is it what is good for the side? Or is it just her feeding her ego and desire for battle at the expense of the side? I mean if we didn't already know they're doomed we would have no reason to suspect their side wouldn't last another 13,000 turns as a bubble side.

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