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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:07 am 
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gobe wrote:
Oberon I was with you until you tried to say that Fate is just like stuff from real life.
It's not real life, it's Erfworld and fate magic. I only tried to help you understand by providing Stupidworld examples. If you disagree, if you feel that you will indeed bed a dozen supermodels and will win the $200 million dollar lottery and will be an astronaut, then I have no final argument other than to ask you to prove that you have done so.

And, if you do win the $200 million dollar lottery and prove me wrong, I ask that you only give me a paltry $10 million to dispel my theories. I will never post a contrary opinion against you again! In fact, I will be your strongest sycophant. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lilwik chooses to ignore the hand of fate. Well, that's his prerogative. But he is choosing "the hard way", and will therefore suffer the consequences of his choice.

Lilwik and gobe will suffer far more than they would otherwise than if they chose the fate path which included the best fate path of Wanda and Parson.

Mark my words.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:20 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    "Can" means that Wanda would be mechanically capable of killing herself.
    Agreed. So then we all agree that Fate wouldn't mechanically stop Wanda from doing it. And by extrapolation, Fate probably didn't mechanically stop Parson from reading the scroll, such as by dropping a beam on him. The beam just happened to fall, not because Fate pushed it.

    You can't claim to agree with someone when you've cut out the bulk of their post and taken their meaning in an opposite direction.

    Fate isn't a mechanic. It isn't a rule. It bends the rules to get it's way.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:36 am 
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    Is it just me or are the shadows off in the second picture? Shouldn't the shadows be column shaped and extend away from Parson into the temple and then connect with shadows from the roof towards the end of the lounge area?

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:16 am 
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    MOD wrote:
    Is it just me or are the shadows off in the second picture? Shouldn't the shadows be column shaped and extend away from Parson into the temple and then connect with shadows from the roof towards the end of the lounge area?

    Maybe it's Parson's shadow?

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:38 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Lilwik wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    "Can" means that Wanda would be mechanically capable of killing herself.
    Agreed. [except not at all]
    You can't claim to agree with someone when you've cut out the bulk of their post and taken their meaning in an opposite direction.
    Fate isn't a mechanic. It isn't a rule. It bends the rules to get it's way.
    Yes exactly. Again, going back to my analogy, in grade school your body was physically capable of walking to the bathroom and answering nature's call...but your teacher put an obstacle in your way that might prevent you from doing it, a deterrent/punishment.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:48 am 
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    Rather than debate the grand metaphysics of free will and what changes a capricious force can affect in the world, you can just understand Fate a different way. A Predictamancer looks ahead in the game log, and sees the outcome of a few related rolls along with its modifiers and circumstances. It isn't the chances of it succeeding, but foreknowledge of an absolute. But it isn't full knowledge. They only can know certain facts, but not the complete situation. They see the future, and know the outcome of everyone's individual, free choices, including the outcome of their choice to reveal said Prediction.

    Example: Maya Calender reads the game log, and sees that all Haffaton units disband as a state-based action immediately after a city-defense Dirtamancy Trap, commanded by Jillian Zamussels, gets a damage roll on Friday, August 23rd, 2013 [date of IPTSF 72]. She has no idea how many turns this will take, since RL dates only relate to turns in a loose way, depending how long each Titan-player takes to complete his turn, or how many times they pause. She doesn't know the name of the Unit. She has to infer logically/magically what the circumstances are. Since it ended the side of Haffaton, she knows it had to be the Ruler. She didn't read the actual damage roll, so she doesn't know the identity/city location of the trap, or the name of the Ruler.

    2nd Example: Predictamancer sees a damage roll. A Gobwin Knob unit named [REDACTED] croaks Charlie by rolling its base attack (4) + magic item #128467bde (2) + stack bonus (8) + GK Chief Warlord [Lord Hamster] Hex Bonus (1) + 1d6 (result 5) = 20 damage vs Charlie's 8 hits on [some date in 2015 probably]. She knows a lot of little bits. She knows type of item is worn by the unit that croaks Charlie, but there are thousands of +2 swords, and each of them gets passed around. It didn't get a Leadership bonus, so it will either be a Warlord leading a stack, or a member of an unled stack: tons of those. But the most specific and useful point is what name she read in the log. She knows that Lord Hamster will be CW of GK that turn. That is was she can state with confidence. If she knew the name of the unit, she could make the Prediction about the unit. But what she got out of it was the CW.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:41 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Yes exactly. Again, going back to my analogy, in grade school your body was physically capable of walking to the bathroom and answering nature's call...but your teacher put an obstacle in your way that might prevent you from doing it, a deterrent/punishment.
    I'm surprised. I never for a moment believed Lipkin about you not meaning what you said until I saw you confirm it. Being physically capable of doing something requires that Fate is not hanging around in the rafters ready to drop a beam on you the instant you try. I haven't yet seen a theory that makes Fate out to be a teacher offering deterrents. It doesn't warn people not to do things, nor does it punish them when they do them anyway, all while leaving them physically capable of doing them. If Fate does anything then what it does is physically stop people from going outside the plan; that's what the MANOS sound effect suggests in dropping the beam on Parson.

    Maybe Fate does punish people, but not for going outside the plan. No one goes outside the plan. Some people try to go outside the plan, but they inevitably fail and get the hard way, which is either Fate's punishment for trying, or else just the natural result of their own useless struggles, like the war Wanda started for the sake of staying with her family.

    I think that if there were a bouncer outside the bathroom door who would beat anyone who came near with a wooden beam, then "Can I go to the bathroom?" would really be a fair question, though the answer would be "No" for all but the toughest students.

    Clementx wrote:
    Rather than debate the grand metaphysics of free will and what changes a capricious force can affect in the world, you can just understand Fate a different way.
    Agreed. That would be so much easier, but the desire to assign actions to agents is very strong in human nature.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:01 pm 
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    Lilwik, based on the fact that a 5th grader seems to display a greater command for Language than you do, I have to simply assume you're a troll. You have horribly incorrect definitions for words that are crucial to understanding this issue, as clearly demonstrated by the fact that nobody is agreeing with the basic premise of your misguided argument.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:29 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Lilwik, based on the fact that a 5th grader seems to display a greater command for Language than you do, I have to simply assume you're a troll. You have horribly incorrect definitions for words that are crucial to understanding this issue, as clearly demonstrated by the fact that nobody is agreeing with the basic premise of your misguided argument.

    Yeah, I'm at a loss too.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:25 pm 
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    I wouldn't go with 'troll' so much as 'obstinate'. And that's not a compliment.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:05 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Lilwik, based on the fact that a 5th grader seems to display a greater command for Language than you do, I have to simply assume you're a troll. You have horribly incorrect definitions for words that are crucial to understanding this issue, as clearly demonstrated by the fact that nobody is agreeing with the basic premise of your misguided argument.
    I see now. I apologize. I had to think about it for a while, but now I understand. We're using "can" in the technical sense that they teach in grade schools while they are beating the exact proper usage of words into kids. I was using "can" in the everyday loose sense of just meaning "able to do a thing," which is how I always use the word, but it's been ages since I was in grade school. In the technical sense you "can" get into the club even though the bouncer won't let you through the door and Parson "can" read the scroll even though Fate will knock him down before he gets past the first few words. So even though he actually has no option to really do it, he still "can" do it, technically. I really hope you can forgive me for being confused because it's a bit subtle and unintuitive, and I was not intentionally trolling.

    On the other hand, Delphie has never been to grade school and never suffered through the whole "may" versus "can" ordeal, so I think it's very possible that she meant "can" in the nontechnical sense. I admit that I now see a way in which Delphie might have been saying that Wanda could kill herself without actually being able to really do it, but that's not the only way that people use the word.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:05 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    The light shines down from on high and illuminates the ignorant!

    Lilwik wrote:
    Well, maybe not.

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    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:13 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    On the other hand, Delphie has never been to grade school and never suffered through the whole "may" versus "can" ordeal, so I think it's very possible that she meant "can" in the nontechnical sense. I admit that I now see a way in which Delphie might have been saying that Wanda could kill herself without actually being able to really do it, but that's not the only way that people use the word.


    I mean, that seemed like the whole point of the clarification. "You can. But you won't." Technically Wanda can, but she won't. For whatever reason. Either she'll decide not to or something unexpected will stop her or something else.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:02 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    I mean, that seemed like the whole point of the clarification. "You can. But you won't." Technically Wanda can, but she won't. For whatever reason. Either she'll decide not to or something unexpected will stop her or something else.
    Naturally if Wanda decides not to do it then that has nothing to do with whether she could have done it. I expect that's exactly what Delphie meant. It gets trickier when we start talking about stuff stopping Wanda, because then Wanda only "can" do it in the technical sense, while physically she can't really do it because something is stopping her. There's a pretty big difference between those two situations. In one case, Delphie can just use the word "can" like anyone would, and in the other Delphie has to be choosing her word carefully and using it in a strictly technical sense, almost like she's trying to trick Wanda into thinking nothing would stop her if she wanted to do it.

    There was no real chance of something "unexpected" stopping Wanda. Delphie knew Wanda's Fate and as a Predictamancer Delphie would surely know it if Fate likes to drop beams on people, so if Wanda tries to kill herself, then Delphie would absolutely expect Fate to block Wanda from taking that action. Perhaps when Wanda tries to buy poison it would turn out to be mislabeled fruit juice. Delphie might not know exactly what form the obstacles would take, but she'd absolutely be expecting something to block Wanda as surely as if there were a hundred foot wall between Wanda and killing herself.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:41 am 
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    She doesn't know something would stop Wanda's attempt to kill herself. She just knows Wanda wouldn't kill herself. Whether it turns out like it did, and Wanda just doesn't try, or Wanda does try and is stopped, the end result is the same. Wanda won't kill herself.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:27 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    [Actually admits the only thing supporting his argument is bad/incorrect English]
    Ladies and gents, I rest my case. Lilwik, if you're not a troll and this is genuinely your thought process, then there really is no hope fir you after all. I almost feel a little sorry for you.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:41 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    She doesn't know something would stop Wanda's attempt to kill herself. She just knows Wanda wouldn't kill herself. Whether it turns out like it did, and Wanda just doesn't try, or Wanda does try and is stopped, the end result is the same. Wanda won't kill herself.
    The end is the same, of course, but Delphie would still know. How could she not know? Here we are looking at Parson getting bonked on the head by a falling beam and we wonder whether that's Fate coming out of the shadows to prevent its plan from going off the rails. Would something like that happen again if he tried to read the scroll again? We all guess one way or the other, but since we've only got that one example there's no way to really know.

    For Delphie it must have been an entirely different situation. She spent her whole life making Predictions, big and little. She can even see what people are going to do in the next moments so that she can shoot where they are going to be. For her, the examples had to be countless, so she of all people would know for a fact whether Fate steps in and physically blocks people from breaking the plan. She would have seen it happen repeatedly any time anyone makes the wrong choice, and she would have talked to other Predictamancers in the magic kingdom who had also seen it happen. This is a matter of speculation for us, but for Delphie and any Predictamancer it would simply be a fact established by long experience, or perhaps even given to her with all the other Predictamancy knowledge that she got after she popped.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:43 am 
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    You again miss my point.

    I'm not saying she doesn't know if fate is capable of stopping Wanda. Delphie only knows that Wanda is not going to croak herself. She doesn't know if Wanda is going to decide to try to kill herself and fail, or just not try, but at the end of the day Wanda will still be alive. She didn't say "Fate would stop you," because it didn't matter. Whether Wanda knows fate will stop her or not, Wanda is not going to kill herself. So Delphie says that Wanda can try to kill herself, but she won't kill herself.

    Delphie doesn't know the reason that Wanda will not kill herself, so she can't say that Fate would stop her, because she doesn't know that it would take Fate stepping in to keep Wanda from doing it. Does that make sense?

    Wanda meant to ask a generic question with a specific example. She meant to ask "Could someone with a predicted destiny kill themselves to prevent said fate?" Instead she asked "What if I tried to kill myself?" and got the answer of "You won't."

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:41 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Delphie only knows that Wanda is not going to croak herself. She doesn't know if Wanda is going to decide to try to kill herself and fail, or just not try, but at the end of the day Wanda will still be alive.
    That depends upon the truth of the matter. If Fate physically blocks people from doing things then you're absolutely right. On the other hand, if Fate never does that, then Delphie actually would know that Wanda wasn't going to try.

    Lipkin wrote:
    She didn't say "Fate would stop you," because it didn't matter.
    Maybe, or maybe she didn't say it because it wouldn't be true.

    Lipkin wrote:
    So Delphie says that Wanda can try to kill herself, but she won't kill herself.
    Delphie didn't say that Wanda could "try" to kill herself. Delphie said that Wanda could kill herself. I think the distinction is worthy of note in this case.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Delphie doesn't know the reason that Wanda will not kill herself, so she can't say that Fate would stop her, because she doesn't know that it would take Fate stepping in to keep Wanda from doing it.
    True, but if Delphie happened to know that Fate wouldn't stop Wanda, then Delphie would be free to say so, such as saying that Wanda could kill herself, or Wanda could do any other crazy thing that would mess up Fate. In fact, that's suspiciously similar to what Delphie did say.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:29 pm 
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    I quit.

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