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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:23 am 
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Shai_hulud wrote:
It's a cause and effect issue. Correlation doesn't imply causation and all that. A different way to ask the question would be have we seen a unit who's conditions didn't change, only peoples perceptions of them, but they still had altered signamancy. Because until we actually see that, then there is no logical reason to assume it isn't, say, lifestyle changes. I mean people get tired from moving their muscles, so their muscle are doing some sort of work right? And Parson lost weight over time from exercise. Wouldn't it make more sense that Jillian is putting on weight from two months of sitting around the house? You aren't really going to tell me you think the most likely reason for a character getting fat while sitting around all day is that they lacked the will to thinness, are you? Except that's you're saying so I guess you would. :|

I respect this argument much more than the "Slately doesn't know what he's talking about, so we should ignore him" one.

Rather than dismiss a viable case as evidence, or argue simply that erfworld works in the same manner as our world because our world works that way (despite so much of Erfworld operating under it's own, completely different rules), you offer a test to provide evidence against my stated theory.

In response, I'd like to offer some evidence we know, a counterargument, and a data point for your test:
  • Parson gets tired from moving; erfworlders do not. ("[...] so we can deploy and redeploy units without expending move. (I'm the only one that gets tired moving around, apparently.)"TBFGK 98a)
      Ergo, we can't assume that action & use affect their muscles in the same way.
  • Parson's weight loss from walking & stairs could be something completely unique to him, like how he can still bleed and Erfworlders don't (First Intermission 25 vs Every single fight we've seen in the comic)
  • Mary Sagittari & her squad of archers (LIAB Text 55).
    • They were popped roughly 1700 turns before LIAB.
    • Their daily routine was standing on the wall, and going to sleep in the nearest turret tower; no training, no exercise, nothing.
    • Despite nigh-total inactivity for hundreds of turns, they all look like fit, healthy soldiers, and not chubby couch potatoes.
To clarify, Mary & her squad form a nice baseline; neither their conditions, actions, or the expectations of them changed and neither did their signamancy.

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     Post Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:40 pm 
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    bpzinn wrote:
    All that said, I still believe signamancy works the way people in-comic think it does. At least in broad strokes; none of them are signamancers, after all. If you believe this is instead all natural foolamancy, this is OK.
    Just to clarify, I'm not claiming Signamnacy doesn't alter how people look, natural magic or otherwise. I've even argued such in other threads. All I was trying to say is it seems more likely that in some cases, people change form before people start thinking poorly about them. It just seems more intuitive that Wanda is both sick and depressed because of what has been done to her, not that her sadness caused her to become sick.

    No one in particular wrote:
    I respect this argument much more than the "Slately doesn't know what he's talking about, so we should ignore him" one.
    Ok yeah, sorry. I think I have trouble getting what I mean across some times. This was what I was trying to say all along. I'm not even saying he's wrong (he did claim he shrank after all) just that we can't take what he, or others, say without a grain of salt.

    No one in particular wrote:
    In response, I'd like to offer some evidence we know, a counterargument, and a data point for your test:
    • Parson gets tired from moving; erfworlders do not. ("[...] so we can deploy and redeploy units without expending move. (I'm the only one that gets tired moving around, apparently.)"TBFGK 98a)
        Ergo, we can't assume that action & use affect their muscles in the same way.
    I was actually worried about someone bringing this up. See here:
    Quote:
    Stacking with her uncroaked, she considered ascending the staircase to another floor to continue her methodical assault on enemy property. But it had begun to feel like a chore, as hollow and pointless an act as she knew it was. Her arm was tired. Her rapidly sobering head throbbed. It was time to find a bed.
    (Bolding by me) So as you can see, people do get tired. This is what I'm talking about though. Parson assumes no one gets tired, because he sees other people not getting tired, but actually the problem is probably just that he counts as some sort of lipid golem.


    No one in particular wrote:
  • Parson's weight loss from walking & stairs could be something completely unique to him, like how he can still bleed and Erfworlders don't (First Intermission 25 vs Every single fight we've seen in the comic)
  • Except this one, right?


    No one in particular wrote:
  • Mary Sagittari & her squad of archers (LIAB Text 55).
    • They were popped roughly 1700 turns before LIAB.
    • Their daily routine was standing on the wall, and going to sleep in the nearest turret tower; no training, no exercise, nothing.
    • Despite nigh-total inactivity for hundreds of turns, they all look like fit, healthy soldiers, and not chubby couch potatoes.
  • To clarify, Mary & her squad form a nice baseline; neither their conditions, actions, or the expectations of them changed and neither did their signamancy.
    Actually, I would agree that they are the best example of units forms not changing, but not for the reason you say. I wouldn't say they were inactive for instance. They moved up and down stairs, and didn't pig out on food. Parson claimed not being Garrisoned actually changes how hard stairs are to climb after all. More important by FAR though is what happens during her hair cutting adventure. See here:
    Quote:
    Mary stood out a bit for her dark hair, which had a few strands of white in it. There were very few chances to see a mirror in the course of her day, but Carrie and Terry seemed to think Mary was showing off. They took to positioning themselves at the opposite end of the formation from her, whispering and laughing.

    One evening, Mary borrowed a sword from an infantryman and cut off most of her hair.

    Her distinctive white-streaked raven locks were restored at the start of the turn. She looked the same as always. But Carrie and Terry stopped noticing Mary's hair after that.
    This is one that really stands out to me. People claimed she had odd hair on purpose. She couldn't actually change her hair by taking actions, but people stopped making fun of her hair afterwords. Is it that hair cutting counts as a unit special (Barbers)? Did they stop caring because something was changed about their minds by her actions, or did it stop being funny to them when she reacted so badly? Something strange happened there. I just don't think we have enough information to know what. So why didn't her hair change permanently? She clearly willed that it would change, and people saw her hair as less significant. So it can't be just perception there. But action didn't create permanent change either.

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     Post Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:06 pm 
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    In response to getting tired, Shai_hulud wrote:
    So as you can see, people do get tired. This is what I'm talking about though. Parson assumes no one gets tired, because he sees other people not getting tired, but actually the problem is probably just that he counts as some sort of lipid golem.

    Fair enough; my quote was taken from Book 1, when Parson was the only POV character, under pressure and getting the "Erfworld for Beginners" crash course, which may have been simplified or mildly incorrect for easier understanding. Since then, we've seen the world from Erfworlder's eyes and found out about all the things they don't say aloud.

    On the other hand, Erfworld biology is still baffling. Units have hearts (Wanda's Croakamancy senses in IPTSF 18) and blood (Caesar threatens to drink Jillian's blood - TBFGK 139; Transylvito draining the horned sheep - First Intermission 15) but even with limbs hacked off, skin torn to the bone, they don't bleed. Nothing spurts, nothing drips.

    Well, except for...
    In response to bleeding, Shai_hulud wrote:

    I had completely forgotten about that. Still, in a reversal of roles, I would argue for ignoring it. Here's why:
    • It is the only time we've seen blood from an Erfworlder, in a sea of other examples
    • It's the result of a very specific type of incapacitation (blindness)
    • Parson's bleeding was the result of a very minor scratch on his ankle; nothing magical, nothing massive
    It could be that Erfworlders actually do bleed from some injuries, ones that we haven't seen before. It might've been some artistic license taken by Xin to better convey the "blindness status". In any case, it's an uncommon sight, and a statistical anomaly.

    In response to Mary & the Archers, Shai_hulud wrote:
    Actually, I would agree that they are the best example of units forms not changing, but not for the reason you say. I wouldn't say they were inactive for instance. They moved up and down stairs, and didn't pig out on food. Parson claimed not being Garrisoned actually changes how hard stairs are to climb after all.

    Climbing stairs once in the morning and once in the evening, never practicing with their bows, and a few, infrequent walks to different parts of the walls during redeployment over the course of ~1700 Turns (roughly 4.6 years) is not what I would call an active lifestyle. They may not have stood in the exact same spot and let moss grow over them, but it's pretty close to it.

    Furthermore, Shai_hulud wrote:
    More important by FAR though is what happens during her hair cutting adventure. See here:
    Quote:
    Mary stood out a bit for her dark hair, which had a few strands of white in it. There were very few chances to see a mirror in the course of her day, but Carrie and Terry seemed to think Mary was showing off. They took to positioning themselves at the opposite end of the formation from her, whispering and laughing.

    One evening, Mary borrowed a sword from an infantryman and cut off most of her hair.

    Her distinctive white-streaked raven locks were restored at the start of the turn. She looked the same as always. But Carrie and Terry stopped noticing Mary's hair after that.
    This is one that really stands out to me. People claimed she had odd hair on purpose. She couldn't actually change her hair by taking actions, but people stopped making fun of her hair afterwords. Is it that hair cutting counts as a unit special (Barbers)? Did they stop caring because something was changed about their minds by her actions, or did it stop being funny to them when she reacted so badly? Something strange happened there. I just don't think we have enough information to know what.

    My interpretation of the events are based on the line right before your excerpt: "The tiniest change in routine, the smallest difference among them, was magnified and discussed endlessly."

    I think the Sagittari squad were acting like siblings who had absolutely nothing to do besides gossip and tease each other. They didn't actually think Mary had control over her hair, but picked on it anyway since it was there to be picked on.

    As for their actions afterwards, I would like to believe it had more to do with character growth than anything, and assume that C&T got the message that A) Mary has no control over hair and would actually prefer to have hair like everyone else's, and B) that their teasing was hurting Mary's feelings more than they realized.

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     Post Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:52 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    I notice that what you're taking for blood is the exact same color as the dwagon's eyes, so I suspect that it is not actually blood. There's no doubt that Erfworlders don't bleed; it's been confirmed by The Word of the Titans 4047518, so even if dwagons can bleed it only means that they are an exception to the rule that is otherwise true in most cases.

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     Post Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:26 pm 
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    Considering we've seen Dwagons decapitated without bleeding, I think it's safe to say they don't bleed under normal circumstances. The bloody eye could be signamancy that he is blinded in that eye.

    And yeah, it doesn't even look like blood. It looks like the eye itself has liquified.

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     Post Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:50 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Considering we've seen Dwagons decapitated without bleeding, I think it's safe to say they don't bleed under normal circumstances. The bloody eye could be signamancy that he is blinded in that eye.

    And yeah, it doesn't even look like blood. It looks like the eye itself has liquified.

    Well, you know what they say "Any fool can tell milk from vinegar, but it takes a learned man to tell blood from vitreous humor!"

    Ha ha ha! Oh, those old folks sayings... *wipes a mirthful tear from his eye*

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     Post Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:00 pm 
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    I think you misunderstood what I was saying about Mary and her family. I was trying to say the same thing you did. I don't think we actually disagree on them.
    As for the eye, I was only sort of half being serious.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:46 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    It's a cause and effect issue. Correlation doesn't imply causation and all that. A different way to ask the question would be have we seen a unit who's conditions didn't change, only peoples perceptions of them, but they still had altered signamancy. Because until we actually see that, then there is no logical reason to assume it isn't, say, lifestyle changes. I mean people get tired from moving their muscles, so their muscle are doing some sort of work right? And Parson lost weight over time from exercise. Wouldn't it make more sense that Jillian is putting on weight from two months of sitting around the house? You aren't really going to tell me you think the most likely reason for a character getting fat while sitting around all day is that they lacked the will to thinness, are you? Except that's you're saying so I guess you would. :|

    Parson hasn't really lost weight. He's gained some muscle. And yeah, that's from exercise to some extent, but he gained much more from being made a non-garrison unit. Which would be signamancy showing the fact that he isn't garrison. And Jillian... I suppose gained weight as you put it, but it is more like she lost her starved look. Which would be easily attributed to her getting more regular food and not getting to fight as much. But she had more change about her appearance than changing her clothes and gaining a few healthy pounds. It's a little hard to say exactly, due to the limits of the detail of art we see her in, along with the change in artists between the books, but she was described as looking more 'regal' in general, which I'm sure entails alot more than what you mentioned.

    As for the 'how people perceive others' part, that's less certain and more a possibility.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:08 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    I think you misunderstood what I was saying about Mary and her family. I was trying to say the same thing you did. I don't think we actually disagree on them.
    As for the eye, I was only sort of half being serious.

    Ah, sorry then. I didn't pick up on that. I've found copious amounts of ;D help make it clear when not to take things seriously. ;p

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