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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:30 pm 
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ftl wrote:
Why would he bother telling Banhammer anything like the truth ("yeah, Jillian saved your stupid behind")? Charlie doesn't give away truth for free,


Because a Banhammer who know how close his bacon is to being fried is a Banhammer who will be more careful. Which is essential when Banhammer has a lot of secrets.

And when Charlie turns his bass cannon up to 11, you listen. Your BONES listen.



We need an ArkenBass.(guitar+amp rather than fish). It can clean ANYTHING with wubs.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:37 pm 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    Why would he bother telling Banhammer anything like the truth ("yeah, Jillian saved your stupid behind")? Charlie doesn't give away truth for free,


    Because a Banhammer who know how close his bacon is to being fried is a Banhammer who will be more careful. Which is essential when Banhammer has a lot of secrets.

    And when Charlie turns his bass cannon up to 11, you listen. Your BONES listen.



    We need an ArkenBass.(guitar+amp rather than fish). It can clean ANYTHING with wubs.


    The Arkenhmmer already covers rocking out well enough :)

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:34 pm 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    Why would he bother telling Banhammer anything like the truth ("yeah, Jillian saved your stupid behind")? Charlie doesn't give away truth for free,


    Because a Banhammer who know how close his bacon is to being fried is a Banhammer who will be more careful. Which is essential when Banhammer has a lot of secrets.


    Eh, I think you're stretching it. I think there's a few reasons why Banhammer won't come out of this meeting feeling like he's been yelled at for his failings:

    1) Charlie doesn't care if Banhammer is careless and makes FAQ die. No reason to berate Banhammer - let him keep his stupid hidden side until he gets croaked! Especially since the contracts seem to have lasted far past the death of Banhammer!
    2) I not at all convinced that being honest with Banhammer about his failings would lead him to be more careful, even if that's what Charlie wanted; given how stubborn he's been about his 'philosophy', it could just make him trust Charlie less. So why would Charlie antagonize him?
    3) Banhammer+Jillian have just done a huge favor for Charlie in taking down Olive. You don't look a gift horse in the mouth and berate it for coming *this* close to not being a gift horse, or offer it strategic advice.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:51 pm 
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    Quote:
    Eh, I think you're stretching it. I think there's a few reasons why Banhammer won't come out of this meeting feeling like he's been yelled at for his failings:


    Yeah, I know. I just want someone to give Banhammer a verbal beat down. Like Unleash the Kukla level verbal beat down(obscure reference!)

    Though I'm curious as to why he met everyone's eyes other than Jillian's. Angry and hate? Guilt? A refusal to admit, after his vision trip showed him the trip, that he was a goddamn moron?

    Probably he's just a jackass.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:59 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    arkerpay wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Just realized the creation and enforcement of contracts is probably natural signamancy.
    He was making a play on words. Similar to "Turnamancy"...
    OOOOOOOOH, hur dur. Yeah that's an interesting point, I wonder if we'll get clarification about that from Rob. I don't think we've ever had an effect that mechanically made sense for one school while fitting as a pun for another.

    Thinkamancy and Turnamancy are fairly similar on the surface. Both effect how a unit thinks.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:11 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    I don't think we've ever had an effect that mechanically made sense for one school while fitting as a pun for another.
    Thinkamancy and Turnamancy are fairly similar on the surface. Both effect how a unit thinks.
    Turnamancy just moves a unit from one side to another, at least as far as we've seen. There's no indication that thoughts are affected, aside from what you would naturally expect from duty and loyalty. On the other hand, do contracts affect how units think, or is it only their actions? We know that Wanda was thinking about revealing Charlie's secrets to Parson; she's just incapable of doing it directly, which brings me back to Spookism, since Spookism is magic of motion and doing things naturally falls under that. Turnamancy seems mostly about giving things shoves in the right direction and affecting speeds, so again I doubt that contracts are Turnamancy. Dollamancy is building motion into stuff, so that's even less likely. Perhaps contracts might be Weirdomancy? We don't know enough about that to even guess.

    I suspect contracts might be Carnymancy. Charlie seems to be skilled at contracts, and Carnymancy has been shown to affect actions and outcomes, but we've never seen it force anyone to do anything against his will. The evidence is so thin that I almost want to think that contracts are an entirely different kind of magic that doesn't fit into any of the 24 disciplines.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:41 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    The evidence is so thin that I almost want to think that contracts are an entirely different kind of magic that doesn't fit into any of the 24 disciplines.
    Well that is just impossible I think, the magic exists for a reason so every effect must fall into a Natural Magic of some sort.
    Thinkamancy deals with actions as well. Loyalty is purely thought-based I'd argue, Duty is a combination of thought and action, and Obedience is purely actions. A unit might disagree with an order for personal reasons or because of Duty, but they are still compelled to Obey. So I'd say Thinkamancy can still cover contracts. You don't have to like a contract in order to follow it.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:52 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    I don't think we've ever had an effect that mechanically made sense for one school while fitting as a pun for another.
    Thinkamancy and Turnamancy are fairly similar on the surface. Both effect how a unit thinks.
    Turnamancy just moves a unit from one side to another, at least as far as we've seen.

    I disagree, recall the one scene where we got Jillian's new chief warlord's thoughts? They were noticeably different. Even to him.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:41 am 
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    Right. Jillian just conquered his side, but because of Vanna, he joins with Jillian. It's not just a magic flop that changes nothing else. It changes who the person is. The Glass box is a turnamancy item that works away at a person until they break and can be molded.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:28 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    The Glass box is a turnamancy item that works away at a person until they break and can be molded.
    I highly doubt that Turnamancy and Thinkamancy strongly overlap. Those two disciplines are quite distinct just like any other pair of disciplines, especially disciplines in distinct classes. So then instead of saying "molded," I would say that it breaks a person so that the person can be pushed. A Turnamancer can use torture to wear away the loyalty that makes the unit resist changing sides, and when the loyalty is weak enough the Turnamancer simply applies the appropriate Motion to the unit and suddenly the unit moves from one side to another. The changing of how the unit thinks is probably a side effect of the torture and loyalty to his new side, not something that a Turnamancer could control, because controlling a mind like that would make the Turnamancer into a Thinkamancer.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:11 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    OOOOOOOOH, hur dur. Yeah that's an interesting point, I wonder if we'll get clarification about that from Rob. I don't think we've ever had an effect that mechanically made sense for one school while fitting as a pun for another.

    Thinkamancy and Turnamancy are fairly similar on the surface. Both effect how a unit thinks.



    I actually thought the pun was Signamancy as in the verb intransitive use of sign as in "To obligate oneself with the token of your name, to sign a contract"

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:30 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    The Glass box is a turnamancy item that works away at a person until they break and can be molded.
    I highly doubt that Turnamancy and Thinkamancy strongly overlap. Those two disciplines are quite distinct just like any other pair of disciplines, especially disciplines in distinct classes. So then instead of saying "molded," I would say that it breaks a person so that the person can be pushed. A Turnamancer can use torture to wear away the loyalty that makes the unit resist changing sides, and when the loyalty is weak enough the Turnamancer simply applies the appropriate Motion to the unit and suddenly the unit moves from one side to another. The changing of how the unit thinks is probably a side effect of the torture and loyalty to his new side, not something that a Turnamancer could control, because controlling a mind like that would make the Turnamancer into a Thinkamancer.
    I really don't want to get drawn into another argument with you, because it never goes anywhere. But I'll just point out that I only said they were similar on the surface, in one regard.

    Tonot wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    OOOOOOOOH, hur dur. Yeah that's an interesting point, I wonder if we'll get clarification about that from Rob. I don't think we've ever had an effect that mechanically made sense for one school while fitting as a pun for another.

    Thinkamancy and Turnamancy are fairly similar on the surface. Both effect how a unit thinks.



    I actually thought the pun was Signamancy as in the verb intransitive use of sign as in "To obligate oneself with the token of your name, to sign a contract"

    It is. My point about Turnamancy is that if Turnamancy didn't exist, everything it does in relation to loyalty could be explained to us as Thinkamancy, and we wouldn't have a problem accepting that.

    Likewise, if Thinkamancy didn't exist, and we were told contracts were signamancy, it would make perfect sense. There is no conflict between something fitting mechanically with one discipline, and thematically with another, as long as Rob says one is true.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:39 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Likewise, if Thinkamancy didn't exist, and we were told contracts were signamancy, it would make perfect sense.
    Surely not perfect sense. I would actually be quite surprised, since everything we've ever seen about Signamancy says that it's about appearances, and contracts have nothing to do with appearances. It would make Signamancy a discipline that does two distinct things that seem to have no connection with each other, and it would be quite a puzzle to try to figure out what links the two things.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:58 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Likewise, if Thinkamancy didn't exist, and we were told contracts were signamancy, it would make perfect sense.
    Surely not perfect sense. I would actually be quite surprised, since everything we've ever seen about Signamancy says that it's about appearances, and contracts have nothing to do with appearances. It would make Signamancy a discipline that does two distinct things that seem to have no connection with each other, and it would be quite a puzzle to try to figure out what links the two things.

    Like Turnamancy has to do with people changing sides, with game play phases, and with actual rotation?

    Like Shockamancy has to do with startling or surprise, as well as with actual jolts or electricity?

    Flower Power has to do with both botany, as well as peace?

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:24 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Like Turnamancy has to do with people changing sides, with game play phases, and with actual rotation?
    That one's easy. Those are all about movement, as are the other things that Turnamancy can do, like accelerating production and making self-powered vehicles.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Like Shockamancy has to do with startling or surprise, as well as with actual jolts or electricity?
    Shockmancy has always been a bit puzzling for me, but when you put it like that I suppose the lightning that Shockmancy shoots might be just the appearance of the magic as it flies through the air. Assuming that, it makes a lot of sense since Naughtymancy is the magic of Motion and Matter, or in other words, the magic of nerves and muscles, the matter that makes people's bodies move, nicely fitting with paralysis attacks, shocks, as well as uncroaking the dead.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Flower Power has to do with both botany, as well as peace?
    Hippiemancy is the magic of Life and Matter, or in other words the chemicals that give rise to life, both causing plants to grow and giving people their emotions, including aggression. Drugs and poisons also seem to be a natural fit with that.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:23 am 
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    The similarities you listed are not really unique. Many disciplines share potential for various capabilities. A dirtamancer exploding a Crap Golem could easily be Shockamancy given the vulgar nature. Certainly it fits dirtamancy better, but if dirtamancy didn't exist, deadly crap attacks would certainly fit with what we know of Shockamancy from a story perspective. Make no mistake, the most important theme when it comes to magic is wordplay. Without the pun to tie things together, the division of magic would not be nearly so cut and dry.

    Contracts being signamancy is perfect. From a pun standpoint, it's the most logical thing. The story can catch up from there. Signamancy is seemingly a physical representation of the invisible. This means that a contract is the representation of an agreement, and a signature is the representation of confirmation of it's validity. The contract itself is signamancy of the agreement. Signamancy shows the way things are, and in this case the contract maker shave agreed to the way things are, and the signamancy enforces it. And that's how I would tie contracts into signamancy.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:37 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Hippiemancy is the magic of Life and Matter, or in other words the chemicals that give rise to life...
    Soooo, Florists are actually Chemists....*waits patiently for a Walter White Florist to appear in the MK*
    Lipkin wrote:
    The contract itself is signamancy of the agreement. Signamancy shows the way things are, and in this case the contract maker shave agreed to the way things are, and the signamancy enforces it. And that's how I would tie contracts into signamancy.
    I agree with the pun potential and with the spirit of what you're saying...but there's one snag. With the exception of the Archons' EULA that was put in for a pun, other contracts have NOT had a physical object representing them. Parties don't literally sign a piece of magically conjured paper, they make a verbal agreement.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:47 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Make no mistake, the most important theme when it comes to magic is wordplay.
    But puns don't explain anything.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Contracts being signamancy is perfect. From a pun standpoint, it's the most logical thing. The story can catch up from there. Signamancy is seemingly a physical representation of the invisible. This means that a contract is the representation of an agreement, and a signature is the representation of confirmation of it's validity. The contract itself is signamancy of the agreement.
    It makes sense that if the contract has some physical form like a piece of paper then that paper could be Signamancy, and the act of putting a signature to it could be Signamancy. I presumed that we weren't talking about those aspects of a contract.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Signamancy shows the way things are, and in this case the contract makers have agreed to the way things are, and the signamancy enforces it.
    But what has showing the way things are got to do with controlling people's actions? What's the connection between appearances and enforcement? With all the other disciplines I can see a way to define some sort of umbrella to cover the things they do, even if it takes a bit of stretching, but I can't see a way to do that with this.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:59 am 
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    I'm pretty close to Lipkin on this one. We could be interpreting two facets of Signamancy as the whole.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:20 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Lilwik wrote:
    Hippiemancy is the magic of Life and Matter, or in other words the chemicals that give rise to life...
    Soooo, Florists are actually Chemists....*waits patiently for a Walter White Florist to appear in the MK*
    Lipkin wrote:
    The contract itself is signamancy of the agreement. Signamancy shows the way things are, and in this case the contract maker shave agreed to the way things are, and the signamancy enforces it. And that's how I would tie contracts into signamancy.
    I agree with the pun potential and with the spirit of what you're saying...but there's one snag. With the exception of the Archons' EULA that was put in for a pun, other contracts have NOT had a physical object representing them. Parties don't literally sign a piece of magically conjured paper, they make a verbal agreement.

    It's only a snag if you believe signamancy has to have form, and be visual. But everything has signamancy. The magic words used to cast spells are signamancy, in as far as they describe the spell being cast.

    Lilwik wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Make no mistake, the most important theme when it comes to magic is wordplay.
    But puns don't explain anything.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Contracts being signamancy is perfect. From a pun standpoint, it's the most logical thing. The story can catch up from there. Signamancy is seemingly a physical representation of the invisible. This means that a contract is the representation of an agreement, and a signature is the representation of confirmation of it's validity. The contract itself is signamancy of the agreement.
    It makes sense that if the contract has some physical form like a piece of paper then that paper could be Signamancy, and the act of putting a signature to it could be Signamancy. I presumed that we weren't talking about those aspects of a contract.

    Lipkin wrote:
    Signamancy shows the way things are, and in this case the contract makers have agreed to the way things are, and the signamancy enforces it.
    But what has showing the way things are got to do with controlling people's actions? What's the connection between appearances and enforcement? With all the other disciplines I can see a way to define some sort of umbrella to cover the things they do, even if it takes a bit of stretching, but I can't see a way to do that with this.

    1. The explanation is secondary. The pun comes first, and the explanation is invented to justify it. It's the rule of funny.

    2. See my response to Jacko.

    3. When they agree that this is the way things are, Signamancy responds by making it reality. Signamancy is fate magic. If you agree that you aren't going to talk about something, it's like you've created your own prediction about yourself, and signamancy makes the prediction true. Parson predicts that if Charlie leaves the RCC, he'll provide 12 calculations. Charlie does, so now it's Parson's fate to provide those calculations, and the only way to get out of it is to break the signamancy causing it, or in other words, to remove the contract.

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