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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:54 am 
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Werebiscuit wrote:
Lipkin wrote:
. Either fate or Charlie had a hand.


Or Fate gave Charlie an incentive and means to influence a number of dwagons to be in the area between GK and FAQ. Now what could that incentive be?... hmm ?... perhaps a surefire way to make sure that his secrets never got divulged ? Destroy the kingdom that knows your nasty little dealings .... hmm ?
Surely an excess of dwagons couldn't be pinned on Charlie, now, could it ?

That is the train of thought, yes.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:34 am 
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    Except he would have presumably known that Jillian and Wanda would survive? Via thinkagram tapping? I suspect people are over simplifying his motives.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:53 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Except he would have presumably known that Jillian and Wanda would survive? Via thinkagram tapping? I suspect people are over simplifying his motives.



    He may have thought Jillian and Wanda would survive the initial version of the plan where Stanley attacks and gets his butt kicked but once Stanley's forces were boosted he might resonably expect Stanley to kill off any resistance ( i.e Jillian, King Banhammer and any of the casters that didn't flee) with the increased firepower and then to turn on the doublecrosser ( i.e. Wanda) on the premise that she couldn't be trusted.
    Whichever way it works there should be less mouths knowing his secret and nothing to tie him to the massacre.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:03 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Werebiscuit wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    . Either fate or Charlie had a hand.


    Or Fate gave Charlie an incentive and means to influence a number of dwagons to be in the area between GK and FAQ. Now what could that incentive be?... hmm ?... perhaps a surefire way to make sure that his secrets never got divulged ? Destroy the kingdom that knows your nasty little dealings .... hmm ?
    Surely an excess of dwagons couldn't be pinned on Charlie, now, could it ?

    That is the train of thought, yes.


    If taming is a form of Thinkamancy, then probably the Arkendish can also tame dwagons...

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:30 pm 
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    Werebiscuit wrote:
    He may have thought Jillian and Wanda would survive the initial version of the plan where Stanley attacks and gets his butt kicked but once Stanley's forces were boosted he might resonably expect Stanley to kill off any resistance ( i.e Jillian, King Banhammer and any of the casters that didn't flee) with the increased firepower and then to turn on the doublecrosser ( i.e. Wanda) on the premise that she couldn't be trusted.
    Whichever way it works there should be less mouths knowing his secret and nothing to tie him to the massacre.
    Except how would he have known it was a trap? If the only information he has is Wanda's thinkagram? And both in book 0 and book 2 Charlie seems to like Jillian? He doesn't get mad when she goes against the plan and spares Wanda for instance. It's only when she goes for Ansom instead of Wanda that his panties get all bunched up. If he just wanted them all dead why would he be so sympathetic to Jills forbidden romance? Plus there is whatever is between Charles, Jojo, and Sylvia, and also the whole Charlie/Parson thing. He just comes off as having more complex motives than being a greedy evil bastard for its own sake.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:23 pm 
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    Until he turns on you like he did to Parson, Charlie always seems to like you.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:49 pm 
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    wih wrote:
    Until he turns on you like he did to Parson, Charlie always seems to like you.

    Slander! Charlie likes you even *after* he turns on you. And he doesn't really turn on you but rather you turn on him and yet Charlie still tries to find a way to make a deal and make everything better.

    Charlie gave Parson the wonderful *free* scroll, and kept giving Parson chances to use it. If Charlie didn't like Parson he would have charged for that scroll.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:12 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Werebiscuit wrote:
    He may have thought Jillian and Wanda would survive the initial version of the plan where Stanley attacks and gets his butt kicked but once Stanley's forces were boosted he might resonably expect Stanley to kill off any resistance ( i.e Jillian, King Banhammer and any of the casters that didn't flee) with the increased firepower and then to turn on the doublecrosser ( i.e. Wanda) on the premise that she couldn't be trusted.
    Whichever way it works there should be less mouths knowing his secret and nothing to tie him to the massacre.
    Except how would he have known it was a trap? If the only information he has is Wanda's thinkagram? And both in book 0 and book 2 Charlie seems to like Jillian? He doesn't get mad when she goes against the plan and spares Wanda for instance. It's only when she goes for Ansom instead of Wanda that his panties get all bunched up. If he just wanted them all dead why would he be so sympathetic to Jills forbidden romance? Plus there is whatever is between Charles, Jojo, and Sylvia, and also the whole Charlie/Parson thing. He just comes off as having more complex motives than being a greedy evil bastard for its own sake.

    Well Stanley lost, what was it, eleven Dwagons on approach? Against defences Wanda hadn't mentioned? Sounds a bit suspicious really, but she helped him take the City and claimed to know nothing of war. And didn't Gillian run into an heavy natural ally ambush a little while later? So yeah, I can see Charlie trying for extermination but falling short.

    I don't see where you get the idea that Charlie was being sympathetic on the WandaxGillian front tbh, he seemed quite vexed with Gillians antics in general. As I recall he'd actually talked about killing a Tool and that means Wanda as she's the only one in the field.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:52 pm 
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    Why do you spell her name with a G?

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:07 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Well Stanley lost, what was it, eleven Dwagons on approach? Against defences Wanda hadn't mentioned? Sounds a bit suspicious really, but she helped him take the City and claimed to know nothing of war.


    Has Parson heard that story?

    Now that he has heard Jack's story of the fall of Haffaton, if given time to decompress he might put 2 and 2 together.

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     Post Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:59 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Why do you spell her name with a G?

    IPTSF 48:
    Quote:
    The wand was indeed inside, tightly wrapped up and tied within a parchment scroll. She had to unknot the blue ribbon to get it free. She pulled out her prize, laughing again at the sheer luck of this find. Quickly, she looked around for some way to write a message, and something to write on. She glanced down at the parchment in her hand.

    Your name is Jillian, read the parchment, in huge bold script at the top.

    Her stomach dropped. She froze for a second, then looked frantically around the room. What was this, a trap? Had they been tracking her all along? Just toying with her? What...!

    The room remained completely unchanged. Nothing moved but a few papers rustling in the perpetual cold draft. After a moment, she looked back down at the note in her hand and read the smaller lines beneath:

    possibly Gillian or Jill, and you have a role to play for Fate. At the time that you conquer this city, Lady Wanda Firebaugh is in need of help. She has paid her debt, and must now move to the next phase of her journey. Your role is to assist her in transition. It is why you exist at all.

    I have placed this hat where I Predict you will find it. You must use it now to contact Lady Firebaugh, and join with her. All delays and detours will cause you and those around you to suffer and perish. I know this well, for I and those I love are doomed by the Lady Firebaugh’s decisions to resist her Fate. Do not repeat her mistake.

    Lady Delphie Temple, Predictamancer of Goodminton

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 am 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    I'm wondering if that's [Charlies' influence over Natural allies] the real reason Charlie put everyone under an NDA. While Parson is certainly clever enough to make use of what Jack has already told him, this seems like something that Parson would really want to know right now -- or as soon as possible. I wonder if Jack even knows? Wanda was the one who told Jillian about it.
    If it was, you certainly couldn't tell from the update, could you? Parson really didn't get much at all out of Jack. I was fairly disappointed in that update, as far as revealing new information to Parson about Charlie went. And to simply move on when there was so much more to learn, that was disappointing also. Especially when Wanda pretty much ordered Jack, a decrypted in complete thrall to her, to tell Parson all about whatever it was that they couldn't tell him before.

    Jinren wrote:
    Natural allies don't use shmuckers, apparently, and sustain themselves by non-combat ("realistic"?) means. Would there be any actual reason for them to attack once Haffaton is gone and no longer commanding them?
    Not so. If they gain schmuckers they are converted into new units for the Natural Allies, which would have been a pretty large jump in size, and therefore survivability, for the high elves.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:36 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Parson really didn't get much at all out of Jack. I was fairly disappointed in that update, as far as revealing new information to Parson about Charlie went. And to simply move on when there was so much more to learn, that was disappointing also. Especially when Wanda pretty much ordered Jack, a decrypted in complete thrall to her, to tell Parson all about whatever it was that they couldn't tell him before.
    It's suggested pretty clearly in that update that Jack had been talking before the beginning of the update, and probably telling Parson absolutely everything that Jack learned about Charlie, including things that we don't know yet. For example, Jack told Parson about the high price that Charlie paid, while we still don't know about that. I expect that part of the conversation wasn't included in the update to avoid going over old news and to avoid spoiling the next update of Inner Peace.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:29 am 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Werebiscuit wrote:
    He may have thought Jillian and Wanda would survive the initial version of the plan where Stanley attacks and gets his butt kicked but once Stanley's forces were boosted he might resonably expect Stanley to kill off any resistance ( i.e Jillian, King Banhammer and any of the casters that didn't flee) with the increased firepower and then to turn on the doublecrosser ( i.e. Wanda) on the premise that she couldn't be trusted.
    Whichever way it works there should be less mouths knowing his secret and nothing to tie him to the massacre.
    Except how would he have known it was a trap? If the only information he has is Wanda's thinkagram? And both in book 0 and book 2 Charlie seems to like Jillian? He doesn't get mad when she goes against the plan and spares Wanda for instance. It's only when she goes for Ansom instead of Wanda that his panties get all bunched up. If he just wanted them all dead why would he be so sympathetic to Jills forbidden romance? Plus there is whatever is between Charles, Jojo, and Sylvia, and also the whole Charlie/Parson thing. He just comes off as having more complex motives than being a greedy evil bastard for its own sake.


    Ok on the subject of the thinkagram...how did wanda contact Stanley ? Who sells thinkagrams to various factions ? So charlie was involved in setting up Stanley, maybe not directly but at least indirectly.
    Stanley was contacted out of the blue according to him. So what made Wanda choose Stanley - the arkentool. Who might know about arkentool weilders ? Another arkentool weilder especially one involved with thinkamancy.
    Remember what Maggie said about thinkagrams... they convey much more than just the message, they convey intentions,
    "To a Thinkamancer, intuition was as communicable as speech or emotion or the underlying intentions of orders. It could be sent and received, combined and multiplied, and manipulated."
    That enough for you to know how Charlie knew it was a trap ?... he could even be implicated in planning the trap. He has more than enough conection to Wanda before the fall of FAQ.

    Others have answered why Charlie seems to like Jillian but besides..Are you sure it's Jillian that Charlie likes ? Could it be Wanda ? Could that be why he indulges Jillian...since Wanda loves her and he can use that as a lever on Wanda ?
    I agree Charlie is complex...I wouldn't want a straightforward "I AM EVIL" protagonist. I'm still trying to figure him out.
    I'm just putting forward ( and defending) a theory. It may be wrong but seems to agree with the story so far.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:48 am 
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    I always assumed Wanda sent the Thinkagram herself. She clearly has some knowledge of Thinkamancy.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:12 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    Parson really didn't get much at all out of Jack. I was fairly disappointed in that update, as far as revealing new information to Parson about Charlie went. And to simply move on when there was so much more to learn, that was disappointing also. Especially when Wanda pretty much ordered Jack, a decrypted in complete thrall to her, to tell Parson all about whatever it was that they couldn't tell him before.
    It's suggested pretty clearly in that update that Jack had been talking before the beginning of the update, and probably telling Parson absolutely everything that Jack learned about Charlie, including things that we don't know yet. For example, Jack told Parson about the high price that Charlie paid, while we still don't know about that. I expect that part of the conversation wasn't included in the update to avoid going over old news and to avoid spoiling the next update of Inner Peace.
    Perhaps, but I didn't get as strong a suggestion about that as you did. Avoiding going over old news is fine, it saves time and avoids spending precious updates on that old news. But avoiding telling the readers what might be vital information about Charlie will only result in problems down the line.

    Having the hero of a story abruptly cuff character A and explain that character B had provided proof of their perfidy or their weakness or their mother-in-law's bra size has never been a writing style that I have enjoyed. And this story hasn't done a lot (or perhaps any, but you don't know what you don't know.*) of it in the past. To be clear, keeping secrets about the mechanics of Erfworld doesn't count, since our protagonist was also learning things as he went along. Having characters other than Parson drop hints (either in his presence or not) that are not completed also does not apply. That is a time honored writing technique. But the protagonist with info that the readers doesn't have falls more into line with lousy detective story writing. There's no writing skill involved with "Bugsy told me three months ago about how you killed Rocko, see? I was prepared for your double-cross all along! Now it's the slammer for you!" So if Jack relayed information to Parson which wasn't shared with the readers and which will be pivotal later on, I want to know it now. Or at least far in advance of it being some surprise reveal along the lines of what I've described here.

    And I can also hear the cries of "Deus ex machina!" from the forums when/if Parson acts on secret reveal information he wasn't shown to have had previously.

    * Kingwold *ptui!* comes very close to applying, since a side like GK with more casters than any other, including a polymath and master class level casters, shouldn't have been ignorant of the potential for something like Kingworld.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:12 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Perhaps, but I didn't get as strong a suggestion about that as you did.
    It's pretty explicit: "Parson had asked Wanda into his dink little dorm room next, but she insisted that he talk to Jack first. After twenty minutes of hearing about the fall of Haffaton, he could see why." Jack's been telling Parson stuff for twenty minutes before Epilogue 7 even begins. Of course no one can say for certain what Jack said exactly, but if it seems like Parson should have asked a question that he didn't ask, then it's probably because the question has already been answered.

    Oberon wrote:
    But avoiding telling the readers what might be vital information about Charlie will only result in problems down the line.
    You shouldn't worry about that. As soon as we get a few more Episodes of Inner Peace we'll be fully caught up with everything that Jack knows about the fall of Haffaton and Charlie, then we can safely assume that Parson knows all of it.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:29 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    It's pretty explicit [that Jack has said lot of stuff to Parson that the readers aren't yet privy too]: "Parson had asked Wanda into his dink little dorm room next, but she insisted that he talk to Jack first. After twenty minutes of hearing about the fall of Haffaton, he could see why." Jack's been telling Parson stuff for twenty minutes before Epilogue 7 even begins. Of course no one can say for certain what Jack said exactly, but if it seems like Parson should have asked a question that he didn't ask, then it's probably because the question has already been answered.
    I believe that it was you who so correctly pointed out that there's not much point in covering things that the readers already know. And so it's not fair of you to claim that there is a lot of information that Jack told Parson but wasn't shown to the readers in the update. What wasn't shown should be all the history that Jack is aware of and the readers are as well, and that could have easily taken several hours to relate, not just 20 minutes.

    But I'll wait and see what new information may come out of the next few updates as the story lines converge more closely. I've never cared much for 'Book 0', as I recall from Word of Author, it was filler that was decided on after the fact to counter the problem that updates for Book 2 had become so sporadic. That is no longer the case, and so Book 0 could be wrapped up and the content and reveals that were planned for Book 2 could revert back to plan.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:47 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    And so it's not fair of you to claim that there is a lot of information that Jack told Parson but wasn't shown to the readers in the update.
    Jack wouldn't hold anything back from Parson. What reason could he have to hide something? For better or worse, I'm sure Jack told Parson everything interesting that happened, and we only got the bits of the conversation that were included in the update, which means we might know everything that Parson knows, or we might not, depending on what's still to come in Book 0. Either way, I'm sure we'll know it all soon.

    Oberon wrote:
    I've never cared much for 'Book 0', as I recall from Word of Author, it was filler that was decided on after the fact to counter the problem that updates for Book 2 had become so sporadic.
    I would never have guessed that. It's remarkable that even the filler of Erfworld is better than almost anything else you can find on the web.

    Oberon wrote:
    That is no longer the case, and so Book 0 could be wrapped up and the content and reveals that were planned for Book 2 could revert back to plan.
    I certainly hope that Book 0 isn't near the end, but you're probably right because it seems to be moving toward a conclusion ever since it's chief villain died. Perhaps all that is left is for Charlie to reveal his true form and hand out gifts to all our heroes in exchange for their silence.

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     Post Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:54 pm 
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    I'm a big fan of book 0. Like it better than the epilogue and also more than regular comic updates, to be honest.

    I think for now a reasonable guess would be that Jack just summarized the portions of book 0 that have to do with Charlie. If Parson knows other things about Charlie that are relevant, presumably we'll be introduced to them at some point, either in book 0 or in the book 2 epilogues or when the time comes in book 3.

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