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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Whispri wrote:
Wanda's made it clear in Book Zero that Fate can be avoided, you just get something worse as a replacement.
Wanda clearly said that, but that's not the same thing as making it clear. We have Predictamancers saying the opposite on at least two occasions and we have seen Wanda struggling to understand Predictamancy at least once, making her an unreliable source. The truth of the matter is not perfectly clear, and what evidence we have is stronger in favor of Fate being impossible to avoid.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:28 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Wanda's made it clear in Book Zero that Fate can be avoided, you just get something worse as a replacement.
    Wanda clearly said that, but that's not the same thing as making it clear. We have Predictamancers saying the opposite on at least two occasions and we have seen Wanda struggling to understand Predictamancy at least once, making her an unreliable source. The truth of the matter is not perfectly clear, and what evidence we have is stronger in favor of Fate being impossible to avoid.

    That's not really important to the argument I was making, which is that Wanda's faith in Fate would be unshaken by the supposed 'Gillian croaks Olive' prediction failing to come to pass.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:45 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Tiny? If they keep just a third of their Cities they'd be larger than any other Side we've seen. As for why no mention... that could well be because the City of Haffaton is far, far away, requiring a lengthy overland trip to reach once you've marched to the other end of the Misty Mountain range.

    As for Olive, she can lust for power as much as she likes, without Wanda her empire won't be viable. Further, Wanda and Gillian have more important things to worry about than an old enemy who can no longer threaten them. As for Predictamancy, there's been no mention of a prophecy relating to the destruction of Haffaton. Furthermore, Wanda's made it clear in Book Zero that Fate can be avoided, you just get something worse as a replacement. And it's Banhammer who's trying to break the alleged croaked Olive Prediction at the mo'.


    Well, I guess there's just one way to settle this. ;)

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:50 am 
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    It's entirely possible that Olive is dead by the start of Book 1, but doesn't die at this point (or anywhere near) in Book 0 - Rob has recently commented on Reddit that Book 0 is only (roughly, I assume) 1/3 complete. People shouldn't put so much into when this wicked witch is going to get a bucket of water thrown on her.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:07 am 
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    wih wrote:
    Rob has recently commented on Reddit that Book 0 is only (roughly, I assume) 1/3 complete.
    That blows my mind. My expectations for Book 0 just expanded enormously. I still think that Olive is doomed to die in this turn or a turn in the not distant future, but now I'm expecting that Book 0 will take us all the way up to the start of Book 1, including the fall of Faq and maybe even the creation of the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, both of which I would very much like to see. I never thought that Stanley might appear in Book 0 until now, and suddenly I'm imagining I might see Jillian meeting Ansom for the first time.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:57 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    wih wrote:
    Rob has recently commented on Reddit that Book 0 is only (roughly, I assume) 1/3 complete.
    That blows my mind. My expectations for Book 0 just expanded enormously. I still think that Olive is doomed to die in this turn or a turn in the not distant future, but now I'm expecting that Book 0 will take us all the way up to the start of Book 1, including the fall of Faq and maybe even the creation of the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, both of which I would very much like to see. I never thought that Stanley might appear in Book 0 until now, and suddenly I'm imagining I might see Jillian meeting Ansom for the first time.


    I wonder if depicting the precise circumstances of the spell's creation wouldn't be a bit much. It's the sort of thing I'd prefer to see in the comic.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:02 am 
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    wih wrote:
    Rob has recently commented on Reddit that Book 0 is only (roughly, I assume) 1/3 complete.

    Link?

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:54 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    wih wrote:
    Rob has recently commented on Reddit that Book 0 is only (roughly, I assume) 1/3 complete.

    Link?


    Link

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:55 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    More to the point, would Wanda retain her unshakeable faith in Fate if she hadn't seen that bit of Predictamancy fulfilled.

    I think not.


    Wouldn't that depend on the actual Prophecy and its wording?
    Suppose she was fated not croak the ruler but bring about an end to her reign? We'd need the actual Prophecy itself before we can comment on whether there's wiggle room to let Olive live.

    It seems unlikely to be anything but to croak Olive, but for now the possibility remains; plus Wanda may be happy just knowing Olive will somday get croaked.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:48 pm 
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    Kyrt wrote:
    Wouldn't that depend on the actual Prophecy and its wording?
    We have Wanda's interpretation of the prophecy, and I'm confident in that. We haven't seen many Predictions in Erfworld yet, but we have never yet seen one that was confusing in its wording. Until we see one that isn't clearly worded, I strongly suspect that Erfworld Predictions aren't the sort of prophecies that try to trick people. On the contrary, I expect that part of the skill of Predictamancers is expressing a Prediction precisely and unambiguously given what limited knowledge they have of the future, so I also expect that Wanda understood the Prediction correctly when it was told to her, and in turn correctly explained it to Jillian and us.

    On top of that, if the Prediction were worded in a confusing way, that would need to be foreshadowed. I can't believe that Book 0 would go so far as to show the Prediction apparently false and only then reveal that the Prediction that Wanda actually heard wasn't what she thought it was and she was confused about its meaning. That would be far too cheap for Erfworld. If the Prediction somehow misled Wanda we would have been told the wording of the actual Prediction and been allowed to be misled with her, so that when the truth is revealed we wouldn't be cheated.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:45 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Kyrt wrote:
    If the Prediction somehow misled Wanda we would have been told the wording of the actual Prediction and been allowed to be misled with her, so that when the truth is revealed we wouldn't be cheated.

    No doubt everyone here is very familiar with the 'vague and comes true in a way we don't expect' prophecy, and even the 'fairly precise but with just enough wiggle room for misinterpretation' prophecy. If the prediction was anything remotely similar to vague, we wouldn't be misled with her. If it didn't include a word like croak or kill, people would be all over it. Even 'destroy' would likely throw up a big flag for everyone to think that Jillian would simply ruin the side but leave Olive alive or something.

    Sadly as much as it would be a real bait and switch, I don't think Rob could get away with misleading people about the prediction without having Wanda give her interpretation as fact.

    I do agree with you though, that we've not seen vague predictions, at least not in what will happen. The how is always vague, but the what never is. Wanda didn't get away with some little 'serve olive for a turn, then run away' or anything like that. She didn't serve her tea or some other silly thing to satisfy the wording if not the seeming intent. No, she has served under Olive for... what? Hundreds of turns at least.

    So, yeah, I truly don't see Olive surviving. I admit though, since Rob is apparently only 1/3rd of the way through, it may not happen for a while, but I'd put my quatloo on her being croaked within the next turn or so here.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:20 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Well, I guess there's just one way to settle this. ;)

    And that is by reasoned debate in this very thread, I don't do the quatloos at dawn thing.

    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    I do agree with you though, that we've not seen vague predictions, at least not in what will happen. The how is always vague, but the what never is. Wanda didn't get away with some little 'serve olive for a turn, then run away' or anything like that. She didn't serve her tea or some other silly thing to satisfy the wording if not the seeming intent. No, she has served under Olive for... what? Hundreds of turns at least.

    The problem there is that Goodminton's Predictamancer was a Haffaton Caster in all but name. And not only did she sabotage all attempts to resolve the prophecy in Goodminton's favour, she didn't actually tell them as much about the prediction as she told Olive. Furthermore, there was no room for an out like 'Wanda serves Olive for a turn then scarpers', as the prediction spake saying Olive would be Wanda's Chief Caster for a long time.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:59 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    The problem there is that Goodminton's Predictamancer was a Haffaton Caster in all but name. And not only did she sabotage all attempts to resolve the prophecy in Goodminton's favour, she didn't actually tell them as much about the prediction as she told Olive.
    Just for the sake of casual readers who might become confused, it should be mentioned that Goodminton's Predictamancer was Delphie Temple, the one who negotiated the peace treaty that would have resolved the prophecy in Goodminton's favor by saving Goodminton from destruction if her Overlord hadn't rejected the treaty. So really you are accusing Delphie of sabotaging her own efforts, which isn't entirely unfair since she did actively inspire distrust, but on the other hand it's not entirely fair either since one doesn't normally use the word "sabotage" for something that is merely incompetence. Delphie was trying to save Goodminton and failed because she went about it in all the wrong ways.

    As far as I'm aware, we're not sure what Delphie told Olive. Perhaps Maya Calendar was involved if she was still alive at that point.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:27 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    by saving Goodminton from destruction if her Overlord hadn't rejected the treaty.


    Temporarily saved. It was a fifty turn Alliance bound by a Ninety thousand Schmucker penalty. Do you really think Haffaton would've left them alone after the truce expired? Or even waited for it to run out, if they could've broken it, conquered Goodminton and gotten the bulk of it back from the treasury?

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:58 am 
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    Delphie Temple must be considered a straight out blatant reference to "The Temple at Delphi", which was the Greek Golden Ages' primary Temple to Apollo, the very God of Prophecy and Truth-saying.

    The Priestess of The Sanctuary at Delphi was named the Pythia and was the most famous Oracle of Apollo in the world for something like a millennia.

    There was also a Sibyl, which means Sooth-sayer or Prophet, called the Delphic Sibyl.

    Both of these women gave readings of fate. And the important point to realise is, they always gave extremely esoteric, complicated poetical readings that historically were only really understood after the "prophecy" came "true".

    History recorded many instances of people getting prophecies that they thought they understood, that they proceeded to obey the instructions of so as to avoid their fate, only to subsequently find that they had, mistaking entirely the wording of the Sibyl, taken exactly those steps that ensured the prophecy they were trying to "finesse" actually came true.

    So if the punchline turns out that the prophecy "mislead" Wanda, it isn't going to be grounds to cry "Fair go, mate" to our author. He will have certainly foreshadowed it with Delphies name.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:02 am 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    Lilwik wrote:
    by saving Goodminton from destruction if her Overlord hadn't rejected the treaty.


    Temporarily saved. It was a fifty turn Alliance bound by a Ninety thousand Schmucker penalty. Do you really think Haffaton would've left them alone after the truce expired? Or even waited for it to run out, if they could've broken it, conquered Goodminton and gotten the bulk of it back from the treasury?

    Indeed. I kinda have to wonder whatever happened to Quisling and Frenemy, Haffaton's other "allies". They seem to have mysteriously vanished in the middle of Haffaton's territory.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:07 am 
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    As far as Quisling & Frenemy are concerned...
    Delphi in IPTSF 24 wrote:
    Fate doesn't care about us. That's the terror of it; we have no Fate. The world doesn't care if we live or not. Only about you.
    :p

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:29 am 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    Temporarily saved. It was a fifty turn Alliance bound by a Ninety thousand Schmucker penalty.
    In Erfworld almost everyone is in some kind of war all the time and fortunes shift in war. Goodminton found itself in a bad spot, but fifty turns or ninety thousand shmuckers could probably have changed that. It would have given Overlord Firebaugh a chance to fix things with the diplomacy that he is supposedly very good at, maybe by finding new allies. It would at least have given Goodminton a better chance than they had without either of those things.

    Tonot wrote:
    And the important point to realise is, they always gave extremely esoteric, complicated poetical readings that historically were only really understood after the "prophecy" came "true".
    Stupidworld prophets always do that because they don't have real magic like Erfworld casters have. A Predictamancer is a powerful and useful unit, not a babbler of vague statements that can be interpreted a thousand ways. No one would pay shmuckers for a unit like that.

    Tonot wrote:
    So if the punchline turns out that the prophecy "mislead" Wanda, it isn't going to be grounds to cry "Fair go, mate" to our author. He will have certainly foreshadowed it with Delphies name.
    The prophecy about Jillian killing the ruler of Haffaton came from Maya Calendar, not Delphie, but you could probably come to a similar conclusion based on Maya's name. Even so, I wouldn't agree with that conclusion because I don't believe that a person's name counts as foreshadowing of anything. A name is just a name.


    Last edited by Lilwik on Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:38 am 
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    wih wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    wih wrote:
    Rob has recently commented on Reddit that Book 0 is only (roughly, I assume) 1/3 complete.

    Link?


    Link


    That was a typo. Should read 2/3 complete. Sorry, Reddit stalkers. Heh.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:43 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Even so, I wouldn't agree with that conclusion because I don't believe that a person's name counts as foreshadowing of anything. A name is just a name.



    Yeah, you might be right. Except, aren't the names in this comic usually indicative of stuff?.

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