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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:22 am 
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Doctor Foreman wrote:
There's also the matter of how time passes in Erfworld, which is still a finicky business.
I'm pretty sure, to swipe a snark from J. Michael Straczynski that time passes at the speed of plot.

jkosta wrote:
The only piece of offered evidence in this entire trial was calling Charlie. That didn't work out.
Even Charlie's testimony would not be evidence enough for Banhammer. Just testimony, and again with possible motive for falsification. The problem with the way the trail was handled is that Banhammer wasn't willing to weigh two person's supporting testimony against one person's denial. He appears to only be willing to be satisfied with a gun with Olive's fingerprints on it, as far as accepting evidence goes. In a US court, having two unrelated people say that they saw you steal something would probably be enough to secure a conviction, despite your denials. If bias could be proved their testimony could be excluded, but Banhammer seems to feel that bias is proved by the simple fact that they are testifying against Olive.

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So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:20 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    In a US court, having two unrelated people say that they saw you steal something would probably be enough to secure a conviction, despite your denials.

    In Loj's defense, I've been in exactly that position of being assumed guilty until I could provide physical evidence that over a dozen eye witnesses were all lying, and it can be a pretty fucking awful experience. Especially when the cops look you straight in the eye, tell you they don't need to look at any of your evidence, and call you a liar.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:36 pm 
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    One more thing I was thinking.

    Let's assume for a moment that the smoke is from the Garden burning.

    Who could have set the Garden on fire?

    Option 1: FAQ --> All FAQ units should be attending the trial at the moment (only possible way I can think of is the brrom someone mentioned)

    Option 2: Haffaton --> Unless they have flyers (I don't remember any mention about them), they should have gone through the walls and Jillian would know.
    From Update 66:
    Quote:
    Jillian liked this space, mainly because she could park a gwiffon on the stone tiles here. Now perched in its saddle, she rested her bare sword across the flat of its neck, and watched the skies. She fully expected Haffaton to attack at any second, with anything they had. But at least if there were an airspace incursion, she could see it from here. If not, she’d at least be aware if the walls were taking damage.


    Option 3: Charlie's archons --> Right now it's Haffaton's turn so the options here would be
    * Charlie is allied with Haffaton --> Possible, but we've had no indication of it so far. It's hard to think they were allied before the turn started and we've had nothing to assume it might have happened just now.
    * Charlie had Archons in Efbaum's airspace before Haffaton's turn started --> Assuming Charlie's turn order came after Haffaton, Olive didn't mention anything about Charlescomm presence in the battlespace. Jillian also has not mentioned any Charlescomm presence in the battlespace once FAQ took control of the city. And it's hard to think the veil the archons might have had could fool Jack.
    * Charlie has some other means to set the Garden on fire without the need of presence in the Hex --> Again, we've had no indication so far that this might be possible.

    Option 4: Crapsack had somehow returned to Jillian and decided to "go to the toilet" in the middle of the Olive Garden --> That would actually be hilarious :D

    Option 5: Some other means I'm not seeing right now.

    Option 6: The smoke is not coming from the Garden

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:14 pm 
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    All due respect to Jack's keen eyes, but depending on how/where a veiled unit is hiding, he might have just not seen it. As in, physically not looked in the right direction.

    It's all well and good to see through someone's disguise of a tree, but if they're blocked by an actual tree as well... :p (or cloud, or chimney, etc etc)

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:17 pm 
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    Not Me wrote:
    Option 2: Haffaton --> Unless they have flyers (I don't remember any mention about them), they should have gone through the walls and Jillian would know.
    I think the jury is still out (pun intended) on whether or not the Garden and the City are in the same "hex/space", because there are slightly contradictory statements about it. And even if they are, the Garden is certainly outside the city walls, so the Garden could be entered without Jillian knowing.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:08 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Not Me wrote:
    Option 2: Haffaton --> Unless they have flyers (I don't remember any mention about them), they should have gone through the walls and Jillian would know.
    I think the jury is still out (pun intended) on whether or not the Garden and the City are in the same "hex/space", because there are slightly contradictory statements about it. And even if they are, the Garden is certainly outside the city walls, so the Garden could be entered without Jillian knowing.


    Maybe you are right.

    As soon as FAQ conquered Efbaum, Jillian was aware they owned a farm and she realized it was the Garden. I assumed FAQ got all that was in the city hex and that included the Garden.
    But maybe every city has an "area of influence" and so despite the Garden being outside the city walls, it is controlled by whoever owns the city. Still, if an area controlled by FAQ was being attacked I would expect Banhammer to know about it (even though we as readers looking Jillian's point of view have not yet realized about it). And depending on how time and travel speed for the smoke works (unless it immediately got from the Garde to insde the city where the trial is taking place), Jillian should have noticed something in Banhammer's semblance about FAQ being under attack if not outright know about it herself (not sure if a CWL would be aware of this).
    Also, not sure how much natural thinkamancy other units might have, but unless Olive specifically order some Haffaton units to burn the Garden, I don't see anyone daring to do that on their own.

    Yet, as you say, the jury is still out.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:19 pm 
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    And yet it remains quite possible that the minimal force Haffaton has in the field was sufficient for this to be an attack of theirs. Assuming Olive is impervious to the effects of the flowers and to smoke from them, it might well have been the case that a clever warlord would implement this plan. It remains the most likely scenario, in light of the fact that it's Haffaton's turn and neither Charlie's nor Faq's. In fact, it could possibly be a standard city-claiming technique used by the side; cart a bunch of flowers up to the walls in an adjacent hex, set them on fire, then invade when the city inhabitants are too stoned to know up from down. Given that it seems to work here, there's plenty of reason to use the method elsewhere.

    I'm assuming the Garden is outside the walls of the city; I have no direct cite that it's so, but it seems the most plausible arrangement.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:38 am 
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    I have to ask - is there any concrete evidence that Olive is dead by present times (comics times)?

    I've been re-reading a lot of stuff, but I can't find any evidence, besides the fact that she is absent.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:37 pm 
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    Well, the fact that Haffaton no longer exists would strongly suggest that. While theoretically she could still be a barbarian living in the Magic Kingdom (and some have suggested she's really Janis :| ), the fact remains that Jillian is Fated to croak the ruler of Haffaton. That has to happen, therefore, while Haffaton is still a side. So unless Olive somehow names an heir and then abdicates (if that's even possible, and if she could afford it which she can't), it looks like it's got to be her, and before book 1.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:44 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Well, the fact that Haffaton no longer exists would strongly suggest that. While theoretically she could still be a barbarian living in the Magic Kingdom (and some have suggested she's really Janis :| ), the fact remains that Jillian is Fated to croak the ruler of Haffaton. That has to happen, therefore, while Haffaton is still a side. So unless Olive somehow names an heir and then abdicates (if that's even possible, and if she could afford it which she can't), it looks like it's got to be her, and before book 1.


    I don't think Olive becomes Janis. That said, it's always bothered me to think that Janis might reference "Janus", the pseudonym used by the traitor 006 -- Trevelyan -- in Goldeneye.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:02 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    Witness statements are evidence. The fact that Wanda is both prosecutor and prime witness is what makes things really odd.


    But a thousand years ago in Europe, it would been standard. Indeed there is where such notions as the right to face your accuser comes from, your accuser (victim or witness) was also the prosecutor and the accused had the right to be there and face them.

    crex90 wrote:
    I don't think Olive becomes Janis. That said, it's always bothered me to think that Janis might reference "Janus", the pseudonym used by the traitor 006 -- Trevelyan -- in Goldeneye.


    Janus is also a two-faced Roman god, quite common in literature.

    But for Janis name, I think famous women named Janis (real or fictional) is a more likely starting point. In particular Janis Joplin.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:13 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Well, the fact that Haffaton no longer exists would strongly suggest that. While theoretically she could still be a barbarian living in the Magic Kingdom (and some have suggested she's really Janis :| ), the fact remains that Jillian is Fated to croak the ruler of Haffaton. That has to happen, therefore, while Haffaton is still a side. So unless Olive somehow names an heir and then abdicates (if that's even possible, and if she could afford it which she can't), it looks like it's got to be her, and before book 1.

    Ah, but is there any concrete proof that Haffaton was destroyed prior to the TBfGK? Now obviously some of Haffaton's Cities no longer belong to them by that point, but they could lose eight Cities out of every ten they hold and still be as large as Future Era Gobwin Knob.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:51 pm 
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    A reminder regarding Jillian croaking Olive or whoever comes after her; we don't actually know what the prediction was.

    All we've heard is "You are Fated to croak the Ruler of Haffaton" in a second-hand manner. An interpretation like that could come from any number of vaguely worded Predictions. "You are [going to end the reign] of Haffaton's Ruler" or "The Ruler of Haffaton will [be brought low by your hand]" or even "You will take away Haffaton's most valuable unit"

    Wanda & Olive could be misinterpreting the Prediction entirely, and the real Fate was getting Wanda to Turn to Faq.

    === Alternately..! ===

    I'm still a fan of Banhammer or Jillian screwing up Fate and NOT killing Olive, ever, which makes Fate destroy Faq instead of letting it disappear into backstory. Faq is like Wanda's brother Tommy; because someone tried to defy Fate, those close to them & unimportant to Fate croak. As Delphie put it...
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    Fate doesn't care about us. That's the terror of it; we have no Fate. The world doesn't care if we live or not. Only about you.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:04 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Ah, but is there any concrete proof that Haffaton was destroyed prior to the TBfGK? Now obviously some of Haffaton's Cities no longer belong to them by that point, but they could lose eight Cities out of every ten they hold and still be as large as Future Era Gobwin Knob.


    Yes, it's theoretically possible that Haffaton hangs on as a tiny pocket Side somehow, but it's so wildly unlikely that I didn't include it as an option. Haffaton, once the biggest side in memory, now so insignificant that no one even mentions it? Would Olive be content with that? Would Jillian and Wanda let that slide? More to the point, would Wanda retain her unshakeable faith in Fate if she hadn't seen that bit of Predictamancy fulfilled.

    I think not.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:18 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    arbo wrote:
    Jabberwocky wrote:
    And theres a scary thought; someone weaponizing Date-a-mancy like Olive did with Floristry.


    Oooh, Facebook.

    Or maybe eHarmony? ;)


    You know what, I’d have more than one good laugh if Rob started bringing Date-a-mancers into the story, and their names were all puns on popular social networks. :D

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:50 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Ah, but is there any concrete proof that Haffaton was destroyed prior to the TBfGK? Now obviously some of Haffaton's Cities no longer belong to them by that point, but they could lose eight Cities out of every ten they hold and still be as large as Future Era Gobwin Knob.


    Yes, it's theoretically possible that Haffaton hangs on as a tiny pocket Side somehow, but it's so wildly unlikely that I didn't include it as an option. Haffaton, once the biggest side in memory, now so insignificant that no one even mentions it? Would Olive be content with that? Would Jillian and Wanda let that slide? More to the point, would Wanda retain her unshakeable faith in Fate if she hadn't seen that bit of Predictamancy fulfilled.

    I think not.


    We know sides can be destroyed, and then re-created (see Faq).

    My original thoughts are that Charlie somehow still got ahold of Olive, maybe keeping her as a caster in his employee. She could, still, at some point, re-create the Haffaton side, in that case, at which point Jillian can fulfill the prophecy.

    There's two things I want to mention:
    1. I really don't want to see Olive alive anymore, she's been quite an evil force, so I hope she gets croaked/killed in book 0.
    2. I don't like the predictomancy stuff that much - as Overlord Firebaught said, if it's all true, then "our lives have no meaning". I kind of like to think that Parson is in the world to break all the rules, including predictomancy. Personal opinion, that's all.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:15 pm 
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    randint wrote:
    I don't like the predictamancy stuff that much - as Overlord Firebaugh said, if it's all true, then "our lives have no meaning".
    Overlord Firebaugh really missed the point of Predictamancy. Erfworlders lives have meaning, just not within the narrow scope of what the Predictamancers can see. Everything else is still just as meaningful as ever. You wouldn't say your life has no meaning just because I can Predict that you'll never pitch a baseball to the Moon. That one Prediction may be inevitable, but you still have all of the rest of your life to look forward to, and that's exactly how Predictamancy is supposed to be used; you accept that the Prediction is inevitable and reshape the rest of your life so that it fits as comfortably as possible with the Prediction. Overlord Firebaugh should have taken the peace treaty, but he didn't because he was so busy trying to defy Fate that he missed the fact that the rest of his life was still under his control, and thereby sent his side to destruction.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:58 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    randint wrote:
    I don't like the predictamancy stuff that much - as Overlord Firebaugh said, if it's all true, then "our lives have no meaning".
    Overlord Firebaugh really missed the point of Predictamancy. Erfworlders lives have meaning, just not within the narrow scope of what the Predictamancers can see. Everything else is still just as meaningful as ever. You wouldn't say your life has no meaning just because I can Predict that you'll never pitch a baseball to the Moon. That one Prediction may be inevitable, but you still have all of the rest of your life to look forward to, and that's exactly how Predictamancy is supposed to be used; you accept that the Prediction is inevitable and reshape the rest of your life so that it fits as comfortably as possible with the Prediction. Overlord Firebaugh should have taken the peace treaty, but he didn't because he was so busy trying to defy Fate that he missed the fact that the rest of his life was still under his control, and thereby sent his side to destruction.

    Or think of it this way: I predict you will die in the next 100 years. It's a prediction we all know, from the time we're fairly young. Yet just because we know we'll die at some point, doesn't mean our entire lives are meaningless, that our choices as we live don't matter.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:24 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    Lilwik wrote:
    randint wrote:
    I don't like the predictamancy stuff that much - as Overlord Firebaugh said, if it's all true, then "our lives have no meaning".
    Overlord Firebaugh really missed the point of Predictamancy. Erfworlders lives have meaning, just not within the narrow scope of what the Predictamancers can see. Everything else is still just as meaningful as ever. You wouldn't say your life has no meaning just because I can Predict that you'll never pitch a baseball to the Moon. That one Prediction may be inevitable, but you still have all of the rest of your life to look forward to, and that's exactly how Predictamancy is supposed to be used; you accept that the Prediction is inevitable and reshape the rest of your life so that it fits as comfortably as possible with the Prediction. Overlord Firebaugh should have taken the peace treaty, but he didn't because he was so busy trying to defy Fate that he missed the fact that the rest of his life was still under his control, and thereby sent his side to destruction.

    Or think of it this way: I predict you will die in the next 100 years. It's a prediction we all know, from the time we're fairly young. Yet just because we know we'll die at some point, doesn't mean our entire lives are meaningless, that our choices as we live don't matter.



    But, our entire lives are meaningless, and our choices as we live don't matter.


    :lol:

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:51 pm 
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    Xarx wrote:
    Whispri wrote:
    Ah, but is there any concrete proof that Haffaton was destroyed prior to the TBfGK? Now obviously some of Haffaton's Cities no longer belong to them by that point, but they could lose eight Cities out of every ten they hold and still be as large as Future Era Gobwin Knob.

    Yes, it's theoretically possible that Haffaton hangs on as a tiny pocket Side somehow, but it's so wildly unlikely that I didn't include it as an option. Haffaton, once the biggest side in memory, now so insignificant that no one even mentions it? Would Olive be content with that? Would Jillian and Wanda let that slide? More to the point, would Wanda retain her unshakeable faith in Fate if she hadn't seen that bit of Predictamancy fulfilled.

    I think not.

    Tiny? If they keep just a third of their Cities they'd be larger than any other Side we've seen. As for why no mention... that could well be because the City of Haffaton is far, far away, requiring a lengthy overland trip to reach once you've marched to the other end of the Misty Mountain range.

    As for Olive, she can lust for power as much as she likes, without Wanda her empire won't be viable. Further, Wanda and Gillian have more important things to worry about than an old enemy who can no longer threaten them. As for Predictamancy, there's been no mention of a prophecy relating to the destruction of Haffaton. Furthermore, Wanda's made it clear in Book Zero that Fate can be avoided, you just get something worse as a replacement. And it's Banhammer who's trying to break the alleged croaked Olive Prediction at the mo'.

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