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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:55 am 
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Ditto wrote:
'I know he's a Carnymancer, and he does Thinkamancy so I guess he's also a Thinkamancer, but that's confusing so I'll not use the word 'Carnymancy' in this sentence even though that makes an equal amount of sense when talking about trying to ruin love' strains belief.
Carnymancy doesn't make an equal amount of sense when talking about trying to ruin love. Carnymancy has nothing to do with love that I can see. Consider the rest of the text update where the quote is from: Book 2, Text 28. Jillian is saying that love is Natural Thinkamancy. Charlie is trying to remove distractions, and distraction is a mental concept. Maybe Thinkamancy doesn't have much to do with what Jillian is trying to say, but using Carnymancy instead would be simply bizarre.

Ditto wrote:
I agree this passage is not proof positive that the whole Faq cohort has somehow forgotten certain details of Book 0 for whatever reason, but it certainly suggests that.
I'm still considering the possibility that Charlie gets involved again to save what remains of Faq and in return they sign a deal which forces them to stay quiet about everything they learned about Charlie. It seems like the sort of thing Charlie might do.

Ditto wrote:
It's absurd that 4 major characters (and 3 allies of Parson at that) all neglected to mention this major fact about the main adversary of this entire story due to neglect.
They famously sometimes fail to tell Parson things because it's not important in their own judgement. I'm thinking of Wanda's collection of scrolls. Parson scolded them for doing it, but that doesn't mean they've stopped entirely, and I can't see how sharing any of these Book 0 revelations about Charlie would help Parson now. Would anything really change if Parson discovered that Charlie is a Carnymancer? Maybe Wanda and Jack both consider it useless information.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:48 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Carnymancy doesn't make an equal amount of sense when talking about trying to ruin love. Carnymancy has nothing to do with love that I can see.


    Wouldn't it love, relationships and influencing them fall under Date-a-mancy?

    And theres a scary thought; someone weaponizing Date-a-mancy like Olive did with Floristry.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:59 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Ditto wrote:
    It's absurd that 4 major characters (and 3 allies of Parson at that) all neglected to mention this major fact about the main adversary of this entire story due to neglect.
    They famously sometimes fail to tell Parson things because it's not important in their own judgement. I'm thinking of Wanda's collection of scrolls. Parson scolded them for doing it, but that doesn't mean they've stopped entirely, and I can't see how sharing any of these Book 0 revelations about Charlie would help Parson now. Would anything really change if Parson discovered that Charlie is a Carnymancer? Maybe Wanda and Jack both consider it useless information.

    I could have seen them not bringing it up instantly, and not bringing all the stuff about Olive up necessarily without prompting, but at the very least you'd expect someone to have told him that Charlie is a Carnymancer that is over ten thousand turns old. It'd be like if they knew Charlie was a dwagon and not bringing it up. Sure, it may not seem super relevant, but that's kind of a really interesting tidbit that may have some baring.

    Also, why would Jillian think 'the enemy' wouldn't know stuff about Charlie, considering two of the big players of 'the enemy' were with her at the time?

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:10 am 
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    Carnymancy is the magic of cheating. It's not an obvious link for love per se which is often discussed as natural thinkamancy (which doesn't really track to me, but it's not my world). CHEATING in matters of love, however, sounds like something Charlie (and Carnymancers) can and would do.

    Wanda's scrolls is a good point, but it defies any reason that all 3 would omit this, especially both Jack and Wanda leaving it out for the same 'because you didn't ask' sort of reason, especially because he has clearly asked. He was pumping the archons for information just the same and turned up all sorts of interesting information.

    What little we know about Date-a-mancy makes it sound like the Mathamancy of relationships, and mathamancy is basically statistics. Not an overt sort of power, more the knowledge-is-power kind.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:54 am 
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    Ditto wrote:
    Wanda's scrolls is a good point, but it defies any reason that all 3 would omit this, especially both Jack and Wanda leaving it out for the same 'because you didn't ask' sort of reason, especially because he has clearly asked.

    To be honest, I'm not sure we haven't been overestimating Jack and Wanda's sense of loyalty to Parson, and to his specific cause. Jack certainly has affection for Parson, but he didn't give him details on the fall of Faq and subtly mocks a lot of things about him; Wanda views Parson as having an important part to play in the Fate of Erfworld, but she probably thinks that of her enemies as well. Both of them have reasons to withhold information from Parson - Jack for fear of repercussions from Wanda (and underlying loyalties he may want to keep secret), and Wanda for not letting Parson know about some of her own past cruelties.

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    Last edited by kvural on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:55 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    Also, why would Jillian think 'the enemy' wouldn't know stuff about Charlie, considering two of the big players of 'the enemy' were with her at the time?



    I guess that is being asked because of something I said. Of course, when I thought that, we didn't know the story of the Battle against Olive, or who else knew stuff. I just mis-read her hesitation I guess, I thought she might be hesitating because of information security laws, when , re-reading it one sees she is just embarrassed to be revealing her love.

    Anyway, I didn't know at the time all the things we now know about Charlie, things you guys were all taking as likely or obvious. For a long time I didn't think through the idea of what he was, that he was a "normal" player who just attuned to a dish didn't enter my line of thought. So I didn't realise he was a caster even. :oops: I kinda thought he was just a one off or something. In my defence, when I started reading the stories, I only had dial-up, which makes for a less determined study than some people make of the comic.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:26 pm 
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    I feel compelled to point out that Wanda did not provide any evidence. She only made accusations, and Olive responded to them. It's a word-versus-word situation.

    The only piece of offered evidence in this entire trial was calling Charlie. That didn't work out.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:29 pm 
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    I was rereading a few of the strips but couldn't find anything about if the Olive Garden is in a different Hex from the city of Efbaum or if they are together.
    Still, what I could find were these pieces. The are not conclusive of anything, but might help a little bit.

    In Update 50 we can read:
    Quote:
    The trees parted here, and the road ended at—no, was buried beneath—a sunlit field of the pink flowers, and only the pink flowers, stretching as far as she could see. Beyond, in the distance, a city of shining green spires dominated the horizon. Jillian gave it no heed.


    Looks like the city is "far away" from the Olive Garden.

    And in Update 56

    Quote:
    Wanda stepped forward obediently, and Jillian followed her into the light, walking out into the sunlit parapet. A warm breeze mixed the Florist’s perfume with that of the field of pink buds below.


    But now it seems the Olive Garden is close enough so that the perfume of the pink buds can get to the top of the highest tower of the city.

    So for the matter of this update, I guess if the perfume of the flowers can reach the city, then it doesn't seem far fetched to assume the smoke should be able to reach the city as well.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:38 pm 
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    Regarding how close the Garden is to the City, I got the impression that El-Efbaum was pretty much an island in the middle of a sea of flowers. The Garden is HUGE, and the possibly the only thing in the hex besides the city.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:04 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Regarding how close the Garden is to the City, I got the impression that El-Efbaum was pretty much an island in the middle of a sea of flowers. The Garden is HUGE, and the possibly the only thing in the hex besides the city.

    True, but we've also seen that a city is more or less an entire hex. New GK is described as being half a city, and is half lava, half city, with the hex boundary a few feet outside the gates. That may or may not be entirely typical, but it doesn't sound like you could have a garden you could get lost in in the same hex as a city.

    The 'in the distance' part always made me think the garden and city were in different hexes, though I have to admit I'd missed the quote from page 56 which does make it sound like the same hex.

    Really, we have very little info on the size of a hex, so it is hard to say for sure.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:55 pm 
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    Cities are treated as hexes, but aren't. An important distinction.

    For instance, the side that owns a city only expends move when entering or leaving the city itself. Invading sides have to spend move just to go from zone to zone inside the city.

    I'm trying to remember if cities have been described as "small" or "large", or just by level... I'll doublecheck the archives when I'm not at work.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:48 pm 
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    I knew somewhere there was something about this.

    Update 64

    Quote:
    Brand new information about this city was flooding her mind: Level 5, +1 garrison walls, a dungeon zone, +2 ...farm? oh, the garden, +2 tower but no spells left on it... And even with Jack’s crazy Foolamancy view, she could see that the color in the Wizard’s Hall had shifted. The floor was still black, but the puke-emerald was all gone. The curtains hung in proper green, Faq green.


    I guess it's safe to say the garden is part of the city.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:02 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Cities are treated as hexes, but aren't. An important distinction.

    For instance, the side that owns a city only expends move when entering or leaving the city itself. Invading sides have to spend move just to go from zone to zone inside the city.

    I'm trying to remember if cities have been described as "small" or "large", or just by level... I'll doublecheck the archives when I'm not at work.

    Hmm, I'd never quite thought of that. I knew a unit whose side didn't own the city couldn't change what part of the city they're in without move... but I never really considered the inherit implication that it required move to do so.

    Still, that wouldn't change anything from my example. Parson couldn't leave the city hex because he was a garrison unit, and the city ended right outside the gate. But... I guess that could just be the end of the city, which then leads into a larger hex that completely encircles it. That -would- explain how Jetstone surrounded the city so easily once they reached it.

    Hehe, well, looks like Not Me found a more or less foolproof bit of evidence.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:03 pm 
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    jkosta wrote:
    I feel compelled to point out that Wanda did not provide any evidence. She only made accusations, and Olive responded to them. It's a word-versus-word situation.

    The only piece of offered evidence in this entire trial was calling Charlie. That didn't work out.


    Some of Wanda's claims are based on her direct experience, and therefore her statements are evidence of those - though of course it remains a word-versus-word situation.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:07 pm 
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    Also I just found this about Olive being able to cast.

    Update 65

    Quote:
    “Yeah,” answered Jillian. “I was thinking about having the gwiffon smother her right now, but how can you pass up the chance to croak a Level 12 caster? I’ve never even seen a Level 12 caster besides her. I’ll level up for sure.”

    “I think it might still be wise to do it now,” said Wanda.

    “Why? She can’t cast or anything.

    “She can speak. She has tricks. And this is still Haffaton’s turn. They will know she is here, and they will send forces.”


    At the time she was pinned by the gwiffon so not sure if the inability to cast has to do with being imprisoned by the manacles or due to being a prisoner of the gwiffon.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:15 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    jkosta wrote:
    I feel compelled to point out that Wanda did not provide any evidence. She only made accusations, and Olive responded to them. It's a word-versus-word situation.

    The only piece of offered evidence in this entire trial was calling Charlie. That didn't work out.


    Some of Wanda's claims are based on her direct experience, and therefore her statements are evidence of those - though of course it remains a word-versus-word situation.

    Witness statements are evidence. The fact that Wanda is both prosecutor and prime witness is what makes things really odd. That, and so far she has only been over crimes for which Wanda isn't actually a Witness, but simply repeating hearsay from someone who was. So... yeah, it is honestly fairly weak. Not that I find Loj just dropping the trial so suddenly and fully any less of a mark against him because of that.

    He may well be under some thinkamancy spell like Wanda put on Jillian, but honestly he just seems like a big child to me. He's all nice and happy as long as he is getting his way, he is willing to ignore things that don't fit his personal view, and he loves being the center of attention. When things don't go how he wants though, he starts throwing tantrums.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:10 pm 
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    Jabberwocky wrote:
    And theres a scary thought; someone weaponizing Date-a-mancy like Olive did with Floristry.


    Oooh, Facebook.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:18 pm 
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    arbo wrote:
    Jabberwocky wrote:
    And theres a scary thought; someone weaponizing Date-a-mancy like Olive did with Floristry.


    Oooh, Facebook.

    Or maybe eHarmony? ;)

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:08 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Some of Wanda's claims are based on her direct experience, and therefore her statements are evidence of those - though of course it remains a word-versus-word situation.


    Though Wanda did offer to Pinky Swear on her life. Which may or may not be something special. I've gotten the impression that its a magically binding agreement of some sort but it could just be the Erfworld equivalent of the 'I swear on Mother's name' sort of boop.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:34 am 
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

    In other news, how long does it seem to you all that the hallucination effect has been going on? I'm having trouble determining if it was when I think it was, or quite a bit earlier...

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