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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:35 pm 
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I can really relate to Jillian by this point.

I *despise* Banhammer and I *loathe* Olive.

My only hope is that when I flip the coin to decide which one I dislike the most it somehow explodes and kills everyone.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:02 pm 
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    Another possible way this story can go -

    the smoke incapacitates *everyone*, including Olive. We get a scene where people are slowly waking up and olive is trying to escape.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:29 pm 
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    I thought the entire trial Banhammer called was all the evidence we needed to be sure he was firmly under Olives control. Didn't we see long lasting control when she attacked Gillian's party in the field?. The same "Actually against your self interest, if not your Duty" rationalising from Tommy Firebaugh ?.

    I think she casts a spell with contingent clauses. "Accept me. Don't resist. Protect me if others resist. Rationalise away your impulses". And I think it works like certain real world natural thinkomancies i.e. just like all the times Smart Successful businessmen get bitten by Gold-digger women. Even telling them and offering examples of their error doesn't help, they use their power of rationalisation to explain away the malignancy.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:14 pm 
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    Tonot wrote:
    I thought the entire trial Banhammer called was all the evidence we needed to be sure he was firmly under Olives control. Didn't we see long lasting control when she attacked Gillian's party in the field?. The same "Actually against your self interest, if not your Duty" rationalising from Tommy Firebaugh ?.

    I think she casts a spell with contingent clauses. "Accept me. Don't resist. Protect me if others resist. Rationalise away your impulses". And I think it works like certain real world natural thinkomancies i.e. just like all the times Smart Successful businessmen get bitten by Gold-digger women. Even telling them and offering examples of their error doesn't help, they use their power of rationalisation to explain away the malignancy.

    While I do think Banhammer is being highly unreasonable in his treatment of Olive, I'm not sure it extends to "firm control" under an actual spell. Strong controlling magic, I think, would have prevented Banhammer from even putting her on trial in the first place. I'm inclined to think it's more simply a combination of his own ivory-tower pig-headedness and Olive's "diplomacy".

    (Incidentally, it's spelled "Jillian". I hate to point out little things like that, but if I didn't in this case it would have bugged me till the end of time.)

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:33 pm 
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    technojunkie wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    but do we really think he could have done that immediately after finding out about Olive? Cus Banhammer's exceptionally stupid behavior was almost immediate, so Charlie would have needed to start the burn within seconds...when it's not even his turn.


    You presume it was Charlie who set the field afire. It's possible (although improbable given the context of her refusal to surrender 'the g-') that Olive mentally ordered the blaze be set. Given that it's still Haffaton's turn, any particle effect of Haffaton's actions can cross hex boundaries...


    I think Charlie feels strongly about the garden. He might want to take the opportunity to destroy it, rather than use it as a bargaining chip with Olive (why would he? She has nothing to offer).

    Also, I'm thinking there are more misleads here, in particular

    Quote:
    For once, she was not feeling the need for a flower, and that felt like very bad news. But it also felt happy and right, the most powerful relief of her life.


    The obvious reading of that is that she gets a hero bud dose on the air. But there's another, totally opposite interpretation. The hero buds aren't just chemistry like in stupidworld. They may well be magically connected to the garden, provoking a backlash as the link breaks. No need to assume particle effects cross hex boundaries. Maybe what feels happy and right for Jillian is that the addiction is finally breaking.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:42 pm 
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    Question. Wanda has turned. What does that mean for her uncroaked? Do they remain Haffaton units, or do they turn with her? If they turned with her, she could have ordered them via natural thinkamancy to torch the Garden, once it looked like Loj was not going to execute Olive, and it became clear that the thing Charlie wanted most was the Garden. Since Jack pointed out that Charlie and Olive may be communicating via private thinkogram, Wanda could have torched the garden to prevent Charlie from convincing Olive to cede control of the Garden. No Garden, Charlie loses incentive to help Olive, Wanda helps protect Haffaton.

    And now that Olive is on the run, Jill can kill her.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:08 pm 
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    Doctor Foreman wrote:
    While I do think Banhammer is being highly unreasonable in his treatment of Olive, I'm not sure it extends to "firm control" under an actual spell.


    It's the spell that needs no juice! A little bit of the "Oh no," a little bit of that "swoon yey" and some "UNGH HARDER YEAH" and the victim is helpless.

    Lilwik wrote:
    Well, you could consider "foreshadowing" all the chat between Jojo and Parson down the tunnel in the MK.

    Quote:
    - Yes, Parson Gotti, Lord of Hamsters, do you believe that Fate is a might wind? One that propels us inexorably to our final destination?
    Or do you believe that the individual can steer the ship of self, to his port of choice, however emphatically the world may try to blow him?
    ...
    - I don't have time to discuss it, Jojo.
    - Good! Because there is nothing to discuss! The answer is known. You can fight Fate. And win!


    That could be either Jojo trying to trick Parson, or him actually believing in Fate's fallibility, after seeing how he saved Selfia from her Fate (which would mean he's wrong after what happened to her).

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:28 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Question. Wanda has turned. What does that mean for her uncroaked? Do they remain Haffaton units, or do they turn with her? If they turned with her, she could have ordered them via natural thinkamancy to torch the Garden, once it looked like Loj was not going to execute Olive, and it became clear that the thing Charlie wanted most was the Garden. Since Jack pointed out that Charlie and Olive may be communicating via private thinkogram, Wanda could have torched the garden to prevent Charlie from convincing Olive to cede control of the Garden. No Garden, Charlie loses incentive to help Olive, Wanda helps protect Haffaton.

    And now that Olive is on the run, Jill can kill her.

    That's a really good question. I'd have to assume they stay with Haffaton though, or else she would have captured a couple dozen cities by now. Remember that (as far as we know) she has uncroaked stationed in most Haffaton cities, and that they are very lightly defended beyond her uncroaked. While she has some control over her uncroaked, I doubt she could prevent them following the old 'unlead units attack when met with non-allied units' and at least trying to take cities. This would also mean many of the detachments (which also have uncroaked) would be destroyed or at least damaged by the uncroaked suddenly turning on them. I think if that stuff had happened, we'd know about it.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:30 pm 
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    Amado wrote:
    I'd been steadfastly holding on to a theory that Banhammer isn't the idiot everyone here has been painting him as. I'd supposed that we were seeing the story from Jillian's POV, and in her view he's an idiot, so, there may have been another side to his reasoning that we weren't party to. But to hold a trial, and partway through the trial conclude "the trial doesn't matter, either way we're going to let her live to try to redeem herself" ...? That's either philosophical cowardice (i.e. rationalization, i.e. stupidity) or it's a plot hole born of Rob's desire to foreshadow Olive's "redemption" as Janis. And I have more faith in Rob's abilities than that.


    I took it more simply...

    He WAS serious about the Trial. The problem is that the antagonism certain parties held towards her became more and more apparent as the trial went on, and that in turn tainted any evidence they might have presented. Olives testimony, OTOH, viably presented someone working to ends he supported, albeit via questionable means.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:31 pm 
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    In regards to the Garden going up:

    Fate is perfectly willing to be frightfully direct when it's being balked. Perhaps the inferno in the Garden hex is part of Fate Manosing Banhammer right in his mini-banhammer. "Suddenly, five rogue dwagons pop in the Hex and go on a rampage!". I've had GMs like that.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:15 pm 
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    This haze may in some way explain why Jillian does not later remember that Charlie is a Carnymancer. I was re-reading the Book 2 text updates, and this is from #28:

    Quote:
    “He’s a Thinkamancer, right? Kind of? I guess.” Jillian bit her lip. There were things you knew you shouldn’t say, even as you felt the words coming out of your mouth. “I don’t know what he is. But he does Thinkamancy. And I think he was trying to...remove a distraction. From me.”


    It's right out of her head. And surely Wanda or Jack would have mentioned this at some point prior in conversations with Parson if they were conscious of that knowledge.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:24 pm 
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    Kyrt wrote:
    Amado wrote:
    I'd been steadfastly holding on to a theory that Banhammer isn't the idiot everyone here has been painting him as. I'd supposed that we were seeing the story from Jillian's POV, and in her view he's an idiot, so, there may have been another side to his reasoning that we weren't party to. But to hold a trial, and partway through the trial conclude "the trial doesn't matter, either way we're going to let her live to try to redeem herself" ...? That's either philosophical cowardice (i.e. rationalization, i.e. stupidity) or it's a plot hole born of Rob's desire to foreshadow Olive's "redemption" as Janis. And I have more faith in Rob's abilities than that.


    I took it more simply...

    He WAS serious about the Trial. The problem is that the antagonism certain parties held towards her became more and more apparent as the trial went on, and that in turn tainted any evidence they might have presented. Olives testimony, OTOH, viably presented someone working to ends he supported, albeit via questionable means.


    But as I said before, antagonism shouldn't be a surprise, much less a showstopper.

    Wanda accused Olive of some serious crimes. So either Wanda is trying to frame an innocent woman to death, or she's trying to bring a monster to justice. Either way, wouldn't you expect Wanda to be antagonistic?

    The whole point of the trial was to determine Olive's guilt or innocence. But now Banhammer declared that even if she WERE guilty, it wouldn't be enough to convict her. In other words, the whole trial was pointless. Worse actually, since it served only to waste time and attract the attention of the biggest loose cannon in Erfworld.

    -H

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:58 pm 
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    vintermann wrote:
    Also, I'm thinking there are more misleads here, in particular

    Quote:
    For once, she was not feeling the need for a flower, and that felt like very bad news. But it also felt happy and right, the most powerful relief of her life.


    The obvious reading of that is that she gets a hero bud dose on the air. But there's another, totally opposite interpretation. The hero buds aren't just chemistry like in stupidworld. They may well be magically connected to the garden, provoking a backlash as the link breaks. No need to assume particle effects cross hex boundaries. Maybe what feels happy and right for Jillian is that the addiction is finally breaking.

    I like the idea of a spell backlash, but maybe not in the way you're thinking. That backlash can go both ways, as we've seen with Wanda in Book 1. Maybe the destruction of the buds incapacitates Olive much the way Wanda will later be damaged, and that would explain why Olive is unable to save herself as she tries to save the Garden.

    As for the smoke crossing hexes, I've been under the impression that the Garden is part of the city. Otherwise, how would Jillian (or Olive, Judy, or Wanda, for that matter) be able to travel between there and the tower without worrying about move or turns, which have been completely unmentioned? Assuming that's the case, and the fire was set by the burning broom after Faq took the city, there's no question the smoke would be able to cover the whole city, since in game terms it's all a single hex as far as a Faq-caused effect is concerned.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:02 pm 
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    Hatu wrote:
    Wanda accused Olive of some serious crimes. So either Wanda is trying to frame an innocent woman to death, or she's trying to bring a monster to justice. Either way, wouldn't you expect Wanda to be antagonistic?

    The whole point of the trial was to determine Olive's guilt or innocence. But now Banhammer declared that even if she WERE guilty, it wouldn't be enough to convict her. In other words, the whole trial was pointless. Worse actually, since it served only to waste time and attract the attention of the biggest loose cannon in Erfworld.


    Banhammer is clueless about how trials work. One would think that the court of FAQ might've staged a few for the sake of their discussions.

    As for Wanda being antagonistic to Olive.. Well. Duh. She's the prosecutor. Even if they were complete strangers, a prosecutor really IS out to get the defendant. Its part of the job! Its right there in the name! Prosecute: to bring legal action against for redress or punishment of a crime or violation of law.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:17 pm 
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    Ditto wrote:
    This haze may in some way explain why Jillian does not later remember that Charlie is a Carnymancer.
    Quote:
    “He’s a Thinkamancer, right? Kind of? I guess.” Jillian bit her lip. There were things you knew you shouldn’t say, even as you felt the words coming out of your mouth. “I don’t know what he is. But he does Thinkamancy. And I think he was trying to...remove a distraction. From me.”
    I've seen people many times make far too much of that quote. It doesn't say anything about whether Jillian knows Charlie is a Carnymancer or not. She's talking to Ansom, but she's not doing it convey personal insight into the nature of Charlie; all she is trying to do is tell Ansom that she loves him, and she is doing it by using Charlie's Thinkamancy as a tool. Calling Charlie a Carnymancer would be useless toward making her point because what she wants to talk about is Thinkamancy. Even if she knows that Charlie is a Carnymancer and is free to talk about it, she'd have no reason to do it at that moment.

    As for the "I don't know what he is," that can be as simple as Jillian being confused about Charlie's nature. He was once a Carnymancer, but now he seems to be a Thinkamancer, so does that mean he's stopped being a Carnymancer, or is he now a bit of both? Jillian is one of those warlords who is confused and annoyed by magic, a bit like Overlord Firebaugh but perhaps even more so because Jillian's new version of Faq doesn't pop any casters, and one text update suggested that the casters that pop are somehow subconsciously determined by the ruler. Saying that she doesn't know could paradoxically be taken as evidence that she does remember that he's a Carnymancer, since otherwise she would probably have called him a Thinkamancer without hesitation.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:36 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    ... this is going to be a Humperdink ending, isn't it?


    I love you.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:04 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Ditto wrote:
    This haze may in some way explain why Jillian does not later remember that Charlie is a Carnymancer.
    Quote:
    “He’s a Thinkamancer, right? Kind of? I guess.” Jillian bit her lip. There were things you knew you shouldn’t say, even as you felt the words coming out of your mouth. “I don’t know what he is. But he does Thinkamancy. And I think he was trying to...remove a distraction. From me.”
    I've seen people many times make far too much of that quote. It doesn't say anything about whether Jillian knows Charlie is a Carnymancer or not. She's talking to Ansom, but she's not doing it convey personal insight into the nature of Charlie; all she is trying to do is tell Ansom that she loves him, and she is doing it by using Charlie's Thinkamancy as a tool. Calling Charlie a Carnymancer would be useless toward making her point because what she wants to talk about is Thinkamancy. Even if she knows that Charlie is a Carnymancer and is free to talk about it, she'd have no reason to do it at that moment.

    As for the "I don't know what he is," that can be as simple as Jillian being confused about Charlie's nature. He was once a Carnymancer, but now he seems to be a Thinkamancer, so does that mean he's stopped being a Carnymancer, or is he now a bit of both? Jillian is one of those warlords who is confused and annoyed by magic, a bit like Overlord Firebaugh but perhaps even more so because Jillian's new version of Faq doesn't pop any casters, and one text update suggested that the casters that pop are somehow subconsciously determined by the ruler. Saying that she doesn't know could paradoxically be taken as evidence that she does remember that he's a Carnymancer, since otherwise she would probably have called him a Thinkamancer without hesitation.

    There is some potential stock in that quote, but I think there is even more stock in the utter lack of quotes regarding Charlie from several of Paron's biggest supporters: Jack and Wanda, and to some extent Marie, though she really hasn't had a chance before the end of the book. Jack most of all would likely be all over telling Parson about Charlie. It could be that they'll do some sort of "Jack/Wanda told Parson the story of Book 0, but we didn't mention it because then you wouldn't read Book 0." thing, but it doesn't really seem that way.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:21 pm 
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    The interaction with the thinkamancers would be a great place to insert something like that. A recap-like panel where Parson goes "So, here's what we know about Charlie. Jack, you've said [x]. Wanda, you've told me [Y]. Thinkamancers, what are you going to add?"

    Basically retconjuring that knowledge back into the story, if there isn't any mind-wipe.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:01 pm 
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    Doctor Foreman wrote:
    (Incidentally, it's spelled "Jillian". I hate to point out little things like that, but if I didn't in this case it would have bugged me till the end of time.)



    ;) It's all good, brother.

    Zippy the Squirrel wrote:
    [
    It's the spell that needs no juice! .

    Thank you so much. :D I will be stealing that if I ever find somewhere to use it.

    Maybe Jillian's hesitation arose out of the fact she was talking to a prisoner?. If she knew something about Charlie's nature, might that not be a powerful advantage?. And something you didn't know if the other team was aware of?. It reads now as her not actually knowing, but I seem to remember at the time I first read the comic wondering why she hesitated, and not being able to come up with a reason and deciding maybe it was for security.

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:05 am 
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    I think that would be reading too little into the comment, Lilwik. You suggest 'He's a Thinkamancer, right? ... Well, I don't know what he is' means 'I know he's a Carnymancer, and he does Thinkamancy so I guess he's also a Thinkamancer, but that's confusing so I'll not use the word 'Carnymancy' in this sentence even though that makes an equal amount of sense when talking about trying to ruin love' strains belief. I agree this passage is not proof positive that the whole Faq cohort has somehow forgotten certain details of Book 0 for whatever reason, but it certainly suggests that.

    Taikei's follow-up point is sound, too. It's absurd that 4 major characters (and 3 allies of Parson at that) all neglected to mention this major fact about the main adversary of this entire story due to neglect. They are not aware that they know it for some reason.

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