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 Post subject: So about Vanna...
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:41 pm 
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I haven't noticed anybody mention this before, and it's been kind of bugging me...

Anybody else remember that all of Unaroyal's casters swore they would not work for/with non-royal sides? It just kind of bugs me that not only is Vanna's contract basically being paid by Charlie, but she also agreed to link up with Charlie... I'm just saying, she's probably pretty thirsty for revenge if she's not going to keep a promise to her queen moments before said queen commits suicide.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:45 pm 
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    Definitely a good point, I think it's an end justifies the means situation. Regardless of who is paying for it, her actions are still helping a Royal side, and hurting the side that "killed" her Queen. The fact that she is (unknowingly) probably playing a role in Charlie's plan can't necessarily be held against her.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:40 pm 
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    She promised only to work for Royal sides and she is keeping that promise. Vanna's contract is with Faq. She never agreed not to associate with non-Royal sides, just not to work for them. Charlie first gives the money to Jillian, and Jillian hires Vanna. It's a loophole, sure, but a clear one.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:24 am 
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    Vanna isn't the problem with that oath, Jojo is.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:14 am 
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    I think a large part of the former Unaroyal casters working with Charlie is him helping them get revenge for their Queen's death.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:31 pm 
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    wih wrote:
    Vanna isn't the problem with that oath, Jojo is.

    You know, this comment and re-reading the comics made me realize that Jojo made a deal with Charlie for Sylvia's life (probably not news for most people). But it could mean that Jojo doesn't really hate Parson, but is only magically, contractually obligated to help Charlie.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:37 pm 
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    randint wrote:
    You know, this comment and re-reading the comics made me realize that Jojo made a deal with Charlie for Sylvia's life (probably not news for most people). But it could mean that Jojo doesn't really hate Parson, but is only magically, contractually obligated to help Charlie.


    Where does it say he made a deal with Charlie? I thought he made a "normal" Carnymancy deal.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:41 pm 
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    IIRC it doesn't say that anywhere. I think given all the info that has come to light we might assume this is true, but it has not been stated yet if so.
    • Charlie cheated death himself apparently
    • JoJo made some kind of deal, one Bea supposedly would not have liked
    • JoJo is now working for Charlie, despite his oath not to. Being a Carny might be what allows him to break that oath (assuming it was truly binding in the first place), but that doesn't give us much in the way of motive.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:25 pm 
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    There is a really simple loophole for him and Charlie working together. Jojo is working with Charlie, not for him. That's an easy one for a Carnymancer to spot.

    While the deal she wouldn't have liked could have been something with Charlie, it could just as easily be that he made a 'deal with fate' as it were, and she wouldn't have liked it because of the repercussions to her side (maybe another unit(s) had to die instead, kinda like luckamancy), or simply the fact that he burned a bunch of juice saving a random piker.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:48 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    [*]JoJo is now working for Charlie, despite his oath not to. Being a Carny might be what allows him to break that oath (assuming it was truly binding in the first place), but that doesn't give us much in the way of motive.[/list]


    Getting back at the side that all-but-annihilated his side seems like a motive to me.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:30 pm 
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    My thought was that there may be a loophole where Jojo is working with Charlie the Carnymancer, not Charlie the ruler of Charlescomm.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:34 pm 
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    Keighvin1 wrote:
    My thought was that there may be a loophole where Jojo is working with Charlie the Carnymancer, not Charlie the ruler of Charlescomm.

    That'd likely be a working with instead of for type thing. It's also possible that the oath isn't actually binding in any way.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:59 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    Where does it say he made a deal with Charlie? I thought he made a "normal" Carnymancy deal.


    It doesn't say it explicitly. The description was through Sylvia's eyes, and from what I understood, she was kept alive by Jojo's carnymancy for nine days, before he 'made a deal'.

    True, it could be some carny deal, but the fact that it took nine days of keeping her alive before he did the deal makes me think it was with some outside source. I'm not saying its concrete evidence, but it's a theory that fits the information.

    Why Charlie? Because when I think 'secrete deal' only one person comes to mind..

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:06 pm 
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    Could be that the spell took nine turns to 'charge' and finally be cast. Vanna said something about the spell she cast with Charlie taking two turns worth of juice (I think it was two) but she still had at least some juice left to cast spells. Could be she meant two turns of her juice, but Charlie gave her enough, or it might be that there was some sort of extended casting.

    If that's the case, it would make it all the more why she might be angry with Jojo. He might have devoted a huge amount of juice, perhaps tying up his own usefulness for 9 turns, to save a seemingly random piker. Not saying it couldn't be a deal with Charlie, and it would fit very well. He's working for him because he is contractually obligated, just like Parson is with those calculations, from before he was ordered not to. The order can't override the contract, just like Stanley likely couldn't stop Parson doing the calculations with an order (Though I doubt he knows about it.) or he could, but Parson would likely suffer some unimaginable penalty.

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:17 pm 
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    Heh, yeah, there's other explanations, I agree.

    But just nitpicking yours (if you don't mind). If the spell took 9 turns to charge, he wouldn't have been able to cast anything else in the meantime. So, the spell that bends the rules to keep Sylvia alive would have to last at least those nine days. Though this is possibly explained if he split his turn's juice between casting the two at the same time.

    But anyway, I also thought that Sylvia played a very... interesting... part in Charlie's plan to kill Parson by closing the portal in the city being an inferno. See, Charlie told the (dittoed) King Slately about the plan to cut off the MK portal behind Parson before any of the fires were started (when Sylvia was still allowing the guys to look for the 'hidden' unit in the garrison) Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it just struck me as odd, as if perhaps Charlie had known that Sylvia would play some important role one day, and would thus make some deal to save her (essentially getting paid to help himself)

    Edit: The above would also explain why a seemingly level 1 stabber was important enough to have a deal of that kind made for her.

    My two cents :)

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     Post subject: Re: So about Vanna...
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:38 pm 
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    That'd be an impressive bit of predicatmancy which really didn't pan out very well in the end.

    And you're right, I had figured that he might be able to use only some of his juice to charge it. Maybe it wasn't something that would really take nine full turns to charge, but he was splitting juice between keeping her alive and some other small duties and charging the spell. Sounds a bit out there though.

    It might also be simpler, like he loved her for whatever reason. We never really learn about if there is any sort of relationship between the two before or after he saves her.

    It could also be something stranger. He seems to be the lead carnymancer (perhaps exception Charlie?) so he is likely Master. Maybe in going from Adept to Master his epiphany somehow involved what could be done with even a simple level 1 rank and file unit when a seeming fate was thwarted or created or something along those lines. Maybe she was basically his Master's Thesis on Carnymancy.

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