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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:59 am 
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Regarding combat and stack bonus. I think might work.

Each unit in a stack gets a +1 stack bonus up to +8. In combat, a maximum of 8 units per stack may participate in each combat turn.

So if you want to maximize attacks, you'll have multiple stacks of 8. But doing this pits you at risk because you lose bonus and attacks for each casualty.

If you want to maximize defense you'll form big stacks with lots of ablative wounds.

Casulaties are only taken from the "fighting 8" to prevent stacks of knights with cheap Piker ablative wounds b

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:28 pm 
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    I'll be letting GJC piggyback on my side and give him general information for more optimal entertainment, just so it's out in the air and perfectly clear.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:30 pm 
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    Regarding John's comment, if we're trying to do something like that, I'd rather have it so that stacks larger than 8 get reduced stacking bonuses, with a maximum size at 16. So, a bonus of 8 for an 8-stack, but 7 for a 9-stack, 6 for a 10-stack, dropping to 0 for a 16-stack.

    Depending on combat rules, there's a few other ways to disincentivize overstacking, but to implement those, we'd need to know the combat system in the first place.

    Also, burrow seems a bit badly explained. Is it really complete attack immunity? Does "no terrain penalties" mean a 2-movement cost on everything, like flying? How does it function in combat?#

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:39 pm 
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    GJC wrote:
    Regarding John's comment, if we're trying to do something like that, I'd rather have it so that stacks larger than 8 get reduced stacking bonuses, with a maximum size at 16. So, a bonus of 8 for an 8-stack, but 7 for a 9-stack, 6 for a 10-stack, dropping to 0 for a 16-stack.

    Depending on combat rules, there's a few other ways to disincentivize overstacking, but to implement those, we'd need to know the combat system in the first place.

    Also, burrow seems a bit badly explained. Is it really complete attack immunity? Does "no terrain penalties" mean a 2-movement cost on everything, like flying? How does it function in combat?#


    Your idea doesn't jive with the comic. I think it's been made pretty clear that stack bonus maxes at 8 and theres nothing to even hint at an implication that it goes down. What we need is a mechanic to incentivize stacks of 8. I think my idea does that.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:18 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    GJC wrote:
    Regarding John's comment, if we're trying to do something like that, I'd rather have it so that stacks larger than 8 get reduced stacking bonuses, with a maximum size at 16. So, a bonus of 8 for an 8-stack, but 7 for a 9-stack, 6 for a 10-stack, dropping to 0 for a 16-stack.

    Depending on combat rules, there's a few other ways to disincentivize overstacking, but to implement those, we'd need to know the combat system in the first place.

    Also, burrow seems a bit badly explained. Is it really complete attack immunity? Does "no terrain penalties" mean a 2-movement cost on everything, like flying? How does it function in combat?#


    Your idea doesn't jive with the comic. I think it's been made pretty clear that stack bonus maxes at 8 and theres nothing to even hint at an implication that it goes down. What we need is a mechanic to incentivize stacks of 8. I think my idea does that.


    If we're talking comic, we have several instances of absolutely massive stacks, (most notably, Wanda's uncroaked dancefight), with units numbers in the triple digits, of which a great many could attack. Certainly far more than 8. My solution might not have been mentioned in the comic, but yours is actively contradicted.

    Mind you, "75 units to a hex" already contradicts the comic, and I think that's fine. We're going to have to distance ourselves from the mecahnics as presented in the comic to create a workable game, and that is okay by me

    As such, I think both our solutions work, the question of which to choose is just a matter of preference. I presented my proposal alongside yours, and I'd be glad to argue their merits, if you point out what you don't like about mine.

    As a note, what I didn't like about yours is that i feel it penalizes over-8 stacks too hard. An over-8 stack is more defensible, if you're trying to protect a particular unit, but aside from that, I feel like voluntarily choosing to only have a fraction of your force fight, at a time, is something only few players would do.

    Edit: Mind, this is really not a huge deal, I just thought I'd present an alternate proposal. Dave can do with that what he will.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:24 pm 
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    I think it's extremely unlikely that all those uncroaked are in a single stack. When he flees Stanley specifically talks about maximum stack size and he takes ~30 units with him.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:57 pm 
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    According to the wiki on stacking,

    Quote:
    Assuming Stanley took a max-stack to flee Gobwin Knob, the size for a max stack appears to be no less than 30 units:

    3 x Knights +
    1 x Stanley +
    1 x Jack +
    24 x (Group B) dwagons (assuming they all lived, minus the three killed by Ansom) +
    1 x Stanley's Red dwagon +
    An unknown number of reserve dwagons.


    I am going to lean on the idea that in the comic 32 is likely the number for a max stack as it is a multiple of 8)

    (Max bonus at 8, reduced bonus at 16 24 then 32 in the comic? Maybe units selected at random get the bonus, so leaders favor multiple stacks of 8 to ensure that everyone gets a bonus and only use max stacks when they are near a max stack limit in a hex?)

    Stanly does state in comic 77 that he could only get the top three knights to join his stack, meaning he was near max capacity.

    Wiki on dance fighting,
    Quote:
    Wanda led an army of several thousand Uncroaked in a dance against Ansom's attacking forces


    While it is not mentioned exactly, I think it might be possible that leading a stack and leading forces in a area could be different. It is possible that the Master Croakamancy ability let her impart the bonus to all undead units within the hex.

    This is all speculative though and frankly the mechanics for the game are what they are and it is up to dave to decide what he is going to do with stacks.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:08 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    I think it's extremely unlikely that all those uncroaked are in a single stack. When he flees Stanley specifically talks about maximum stack size and he takes ~30 units with him.


    Link that, would you? I see no mention of this. His address to K.I.Stanley's.S. looks like it refers to his remaining Dwagon supplies, rather than a stack rule.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:23 pm 
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    Silversought wrote:
    GWvsJohn wrote:
    I think it's extremely unlikely that all those uncroaked are in a single stack. When he flees Stanley specifically talks about maximum stack size and he takes ~30 units with him.


    Link that, would you? I see no mention of this. His address to K.I.Stanley's.S. looks like it refers to his remaining Dwagon supplies, rather than a stack rule.


    In comic 58 Ansom uses the phrase "max stack." In comic 83, Stanley says he can only take 3 Knights with him. Other than a stack size limit, I can't think of a reason why he wouldn't take as many as possible. In later comics the proportion of ridden to unridden Dwagons is much higher than 1 in 10

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:36 pm 
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    GWvsJohn wrote:
    Silversought wrote:
    GWvsJohn wrote:
    I think it's extremely unlikely that all those uncroaked are in a single stack. When he flees Stanley specifically talks about maximum stack size and he takes ~30 units with him.


    Link that, would you? I see no mention of this. His address to K.I.Stanley's.S. looks like it refers to his remaining Dwagon supplies, rather than a stack rule.


    In comic 58 Ansom uses the phrase "max stack." In comic 83, Stanley says he can only take 3 Knights with him. Other than a stack size limit, I can't think of a reason why he wouldn't take as many as possible. In later comics the proportion of ridden to unridden Dwagons is much higher than 1 in 10


    Good point. Hadn't occurred to me. While I don't think canon is particularly important for applying to Empires, it's cool to learn this stuff.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:50 am 
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    Downtown, Savage, and Underempire have completed turn 0.

    Moppets are waiting for final orders to complete turn 0.

    Voyera, Whedawal, and Winter Wonderland are still working on turn 0 scouting.


    Cheers

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:50 pm 
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    All turn 0 scouting done.

    I have orders from 3 players to end turn 0, and waiting on 1 player.

    I will process in about 8 hours.

    Cheers

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:30 pm 
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    OK - all 7 players should now have a start of turn 1 report and map.

    A couple of things I'll say here:

    * To found a city, you will need a command unit in the appropriate hex at the start of the turn. If you haven't found a city site yet, they look like a ruined city.

    For turn 1 (and every turn after) you can only move units into hexes that were scouted in the previous turn. Only scouts (and their mounts) can move into the inky darkness that is unexplored areas.

    Here's a terrain chart :
    Image

    I'll start processing turn 1 now.
    Cheers

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:12 am 
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    Ah thank you. The hex types are very good information to have.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:08 am 
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    I think there are one or two types missing from that chart.

    I've processed two turn 1 orders, and now I'm taking a 24 hour break .

    Cheers

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:11 am 
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    HerbieRai wrote:
    what makes stabbers useful compared to pikers? The only thing stabbers get is +1 attack, but when compared with the 2 defense and 2 hits pikers get they seem a lot stronger.


    I think I need to ask this question as well.

    Current base stats for both are,

    Stabber - (5/3/1/6)+4 (20) = 15 points + 4 custom points

    Piker - (7/2/3/6)+4 (20) = 18 points +4 custom points.

    As it is the only way to have the stabbers have a superior use over to pikers, for the same cost, is if you toss every single point into attack, for a total of +1 advantage.

    I think pikers should have a slightly higher cost to compensate for the higher point amount. Maybe an extra +5 to maintenance costs?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:07 am 
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    The general way I saw it (which isn't in this rules document so I'm not sure if it's changed), is that Pikers are by default Garrison Units, meaning you must pay an additional cost in order to field them. Though since he says in his example that Stabbers can be Garrison, I'm not actually sure how Garrison rules work in Erflia, or how you go about Garrisoning and Ungarrisoning units. Traditionally though they're supposed to be more powerful because you must pay an additional fee to put them on the field.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:49 am 
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    I was assuming that getting garrison is a choice to make when popping. For example I can pop 4 archers which would have 80 upkeep total, or I can pop 4 garrison archers that will only have 40 upkeep total, but couldn't move out of the city.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:19 am 
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    HerbieRai wrote:
    I was assuming that getting garrison is a choice to make when popping. For example I can pop 4 archers which would have 80 upkeep total, or I can pop 4 garrison archers that will only have 40 upkeep total, but couldn't move out of the city.


    In 0berons version of the rules, Pikers and Archers are popped as garrison and Stabbers are not.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:05 pm 
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    RE: Garrison - you can declare troops to be garrisoned at any point (just popped or preexisting) (note there is a garrison limit per city). To ungarrison them, you have to pay double their normal upkeep.

    RE: Stabbers and Pikers - in the other versions of these rules they had different maintenance (and stabbers had higher move). Now it is just that you can have two types of infantry, one with slightly better points. Think of them as Infantry A and Infantry B. If desired, I can increase the maintenance of the Pikers (since no-one has any of them), but I think this way is just as good. So you can have an attack heavy unit and a defence heavy unit, or you can have two almost identical middle units.

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