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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:02 pm 
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You forgot to include flying specials on the dwagons <_<

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:04 pm 
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    LOL, fixed thanks.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:38 pm 
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    Changed Red Dwagon to Lava Dwagon and added some more flavor text.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:37 am 
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    Seems like vehicles might be a bit on the cheap side, particularly when it comes to enhancing them with magic. I mean a level 2 turnamancer can give a vehicle 24 move in a single turn, which would likely make it among the fastest units in the game. Granted that's without any terrain capacity or anything, and takes the caster's entire reserve of juice for the turn, but that is still an impressive amount of movement either way. A few turns spent building a high end vehicle in a high level city specifically equipped for it and with a decent level turnamancer... Well, you'd quite literally have a tank: A jet powered tank.

    I mean, a level 4 city with two storehouses and a level 4 turnamancer would, in three turns, be able to produce a burrowing, mountain/water/hill/forest/desert/tundra capable 30/0/15/80 mount that can carry 4 units. I mean sure, you're tying up a valuable asset in the turnamancer, but you could easily drop the turnamancer's involvement to only 2 turns and still have a wickedly fast 32 move mount. It may lack attack, but it'd likely be the toughest unit in the game, and it can be produced alongside other units in the city.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:55 am 
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    Vehicles seem awfully cheap for what they do. So fabrication in general, but that's a separate issue.

    I think there should, at the very least, be a level minimum for making vehicles. I mean, GK has dozens of Twoll fabricators and no vehicles.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:01 am 
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    Hmmm that's a fair point but we don't really know what else the Twolls are doing. Also GK's only Mounts are Dwagons, and since only magical vehicles can fly, devoting Dwagons to cart duty is pretty lame lol. And lastly, Casters level slowly in this game in my opinion. That's an ongoing issue that bears looking at, but the level 4 turnamancer you mention would take a while to get.
    However these are still valid points so I will look at raising the costs.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:15 am 
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    GK also has Spidews.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:56 pm 
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    Haven't seen any kind of xp chart for how much is needed to level or how that compares to being in combat. So I can't really say much either way with that. Still, a level 3 using all 3 turns would have slightly better results than the level4 for 2 turns. Suppose it is hard to tell for sure without some playtesting.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:36 pm 
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    I'm not sure if this has been covered anywhere else, but what about siege? I'll spoiler my ramblings, in case this has been discussed elsewhere.
    Spoiler: show
    ErfWiki wrote:
    A siege tower can carry units with digging special and act as a portable shelter for them, while they dig into city walls. IPTSF 6


    They're slow (but don't appear to be self-propelled, or pulled by mounts), they have decent defence and accommodate eight. I could spend 4 Loose Materials for the base vehicle, and 14 Loose Materials for an additional 7 passengers - which is a lot. Not sure how to handle movement, or any magical augmentations (flying siege towers?! :twisted:). Possibly handle it with a second base vehicle type, which can be upgraded with fabrication options, but not with standard Weird/Turnamancy options.

    Cost: 8 Loose Materials.
    Stats: 10/0/5/*, 8 Passengers.
    *where move is a half the move of the passenger unit with the lowest move.

    The IPTSF text also indicates siege is popped by cities. Possibly a new building "Siege Workshop" that like a Wharf can pop Vehicles / Siege. Or maybe cities have the 'fabricate' special and can pop mundane equipment (instead of popping loose materials) in their storehouses.


    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    I mean, a level 4 city with two storehouses and a level 4 turnamancer would, in three turns, be able to produce a burrowing, mountain/water/hill/forest/desert/tundra capable 30/0/15/80 mount that can carry 4 units.


    Perhaps a few rules to limit the proliferation and augmentation of magical vehicles would be a good idea.
    • A Caster can create 1 magical vehicle per two levels? Or similar "# of vehicles = caster levels" mechanic.
    • Only full Casters can augment vehicles - the art is beyond the abilities of Specials with natural Weird/Turnamancy.
    • Only one special per vehicle. Or perhaps only 40 juice total can be spent to augment a vehicle.

    0beron wrote:
    Once it is complete, the Vehicle may never be altered further.


    I agree that this is a good idea for magical vehicles. Players shouldn't be able to chop and change the specials on their magical vehicles as convenient. But, I think any old mundane vehicle could be enchanted. Why wouldn't a Turnamancer be able to turn a sloop into a self-propelled sailboat?

    Maybe the above line could be changed to something like "Once a vehicle has been fabricated, no further fabrication changes can be made. Once a vehicle has been magically augmented, these enchantments cannot be changed."

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:50 pm 
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    Siege towers are actually popped like units, as stated in book 0. They pop fully formed with a compliment of diggers ready in them.

    I think creating a super vehicle might be problematic as well. I mean if someone spent a dozen or so turns in a high level city to make a 150/0/75/500 vehicle with 8 capacity... well, that doom truck could carry a virtually invulnerable stack around to anywhere on the map in a single turn.

    Okay, enough nit picking with what is wrong, time for some suggestions of my own:
    *The final design must be decided on at the start of construction: No modifications. This is mostly to help make the next one a bit more impactful for timing of where your caster will be.
    *Casters may only enhance a vehicle once, and only as it is being completed. This limits enhancements to one turn's worth of juice (or more if using links, but that'd be kinda the point of the link). It also means the caster has to be in a specific spot at a specific time. Still allows for some quite quick vehicles for a reasonably high level caster, but it does make it harder and denies a ton of capabilities, which brings me to.... This also helps with natural mancers, as they'll only have a handful of juice anyway. Perhaps a clause about only one mancer of any given discipline may work on the vehicle.
    *Land based vehicles may not be water capable, water based vehicles may only be made desert and tundra capable.
    *I suggest making the various capabilities the realm of a weirdomancer as well. After all, doesn't make much sense that you need a weirdomancer for flight, but a turnmancer can do the other terrain capabilities. I can see an argument for burrowing (turning the drill), but might consider making it dirtamancer/weirdmancer.
    *Make a hard limit either on amount of total materials that can be spent (say 20) or maximum number of turns a vehicle can be constructed over (Say... 1 per city level, or 4 flat perhaps). Either way this prevents the creation of ridiculously strong vehicles, and the later rewards people who invest in storehouses, while the former still rewards them with faster production, but the same max strength as anyone else.

    I still think vehicles might be potentially problematic because of their impressive hp/defense potential, but this should make them more manageable.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:00 am 
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    People wrote:
    Stuff about Siege Engines.
    From what I recall, there is rather conflicting info regarding Siege Engines, but it does seem clear enough that they should be treated as something else. I will tackle that issue when we come to it, but in the meantime I'm ruling it as unrelated to Vehicles.

    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    The final design must be decided on at the start of construction: No modifications.
    Already in place, perhaps my wording wasn't clear but yes this is what I intended the rules to state.

    Quote:
    "Caster must do all the enchanting in a single turn"
    I don't like this idea simply because it is inconsistent across the game. Fabricate units may craft things that take more than a single turn, and I'm sure we will determine there are other casters who may do things that take multiple turns of juice. So for fairness sake this would not be an appropriate limit on Turnamancers given the current mechanics.

    Quote:
    Land based vehicles may not be water capable, water based vehicles may only be made desert and tundra capable.
    Not sure where exactly you were going with the second part, but yes to the land/water thing. Vehicles are either land OR water (OR air), never more than one.

    Quote:
    "Change the required caster types"
    It's pretty clearly canon that Vehicles in general are Turnamancy territory, so I'm not going to detract from their dominance of the area. From a flavor perspective, think of a Turnamancer designing the Vehicle in such a way that it functions better in a given terrain. Drill for burrowing, treads for desert, augers for swamp, ect. All of these are mechanical differences to the vehicle and how it's "engine" works. I only put Wierdomancy in the equation for Flight because that's established cannon, Wierdomancers can deal with the Flight Special.

    Quote:
    "Limit production of vehicles in some way"
    I'm instead going to go with a general nerf to Vehicles, so that they are more costly. Once I tweak the numbers, the super-long production required to make a supervehicle will just be impractical.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:28 pm 
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    Amendment to Vehicles!

    Quote:
    Vehicles are created using Fabrication, and have a variety of options for customization. All of the following information is determined by the creators at the start of work, and cannot be changed at any later point, ever. Once initiated, crafting must be performed continuously. If the Fabricator or Caster ceases work before their portion is complete, the Vehicle is scrapped and all resources spent are lost.
    Propulsion:
    • Mount-Drawn: A Mount can pull a Vehicle with # of Passengers = 2x it's Rider capacity
    • Self-Propelled: Enchanted by a Turnamancer as specified below. Self-propulsion is a prerequisite for any specials
    Mode:
    • Land: Travels on land terrain types only.
    • Water: Bound to water hexes only
    • Airborne: Self-propelled Vehicles only, this type can fly but not swim or travel by ground.
    • Special exemption: Swamp Terrain Capable can traverse Water & Swamp hexes, but no others.
    A Vehicle may be crafted for 4 Loose Materials, and has the following basic stats:
    • 10/0/2/0, Single Passenger
    It can be enhanced with Fabrication as follows:
    • +2 Loose Materials/additional Passenger
    • +4 Loose Materials gains +2 Hits, +1 Def
    Casters can further enhance the Vehicle as follows:
    (Only self-propelled Vehicles can gain specials)
    • +5 Juice/1 Move (Turnamancy)
    • Flight: 80 Juice (Wierdomancy)
    • Terrain Capability: 40 Juice (Turnamancy, and only one terrain/vehicle)
    • Burrowing: 80 Juice (Turnamancy)


    I'm happier with how this looks, I kept the process and flavor pretty much the same but hit the costs pretty heavily. This way it is still technically possible to craft those super Vehicles you were afraid of, but it would take so long this is impractical, and if someone wants to dedicate that much time to a single Vehicle I say all the power to them, they deserve it at that point.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:56 pm 
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    Looks significantly more balanced to me. I think the main use of them will be mostly as addons to mounts to let them haul more people as opposed to assault vehicles, though turnamancers still give good utility that seems in line with other casters. May want to specify that the swamp/water thing is for water vehicles only (I know that's what you mean, but it isn't what it says right now).

    Anyway, nice addition and good luck to you.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:42 am 
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    Okay, so we are starting to reach that point when maps of revealed terrain are getting big enough that soon the image size I use in messages won't be detailed enough. I have a couple possible solutions, and would like your input or even additional suggestions:
    • Use Google Drive or Dropbox to maintain a shared folder with each of you where a map image could live (along with any other documents you want to share, maybe a spreadsheet of unit stats).
    • Everyone gets Hexographer, and using Dropbox I share an actual map file with each of you, so I can directly reveal terrain to you, and you can in turn move your own troops and such, so the map is always perfectly updated. This does require a bit more work on my end, but will probably be the most useful.

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    "I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:27 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    • Everyone gets Hexographer, and using Dropbox I share an actual map file with each of you, so I can directly reveal terrain to you, and you can in turn move your own troops and such, so the map is always perfectly updated. This does require a bit more work on my end, but will probably be the most useful.


    STOP TRYING TO SET STANDARDS I'LL HAVE TO MATCH

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:31 am 
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    hahaha oooh Kaed you're silly :p None of these guys are in your campaign so they won't care if you're not doing this :p Besides, it might not even work as well as I imagine

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    GJC wrote:
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    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:09 pm 
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    For me, I think the first option is much more viable. As crazy as this sounds, I actually don't have a computer of my own. I rpg from my phone and public computers in the library at the hospital. So downloading images works. Downloading a program probably doesn't. Ill see if I can install hexographer at work tomorrow to be sure.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:21 pm 
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    Ah ok duly noted.

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    GJC wrote:
    Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
    There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:37 pm 
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    Location: When you reach the border of hell, turn right. Can't miss me.
    Google Docs would probably be the easiest.

    EDIT: I have faced several tense situations in my game, but I worry that I am about to face my most challenging yet o___o;

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:01 am 
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    I don't know what's going on in other people's games, but I just want to say publicly that 0beron's roleplaying has been phenomenal in my game. It's a shame that I'm the only person who gets to enjoy it :)

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