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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:23 am 
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0beron wrote:
the more I read this over the more I realize that Might Archers are screwed. They're ARCHERS...that are forced to be in Melee range...


I think you're not giving them enough credit. To wit,

MarbitChow wrote:
It helps if, instead of thinking of them as archers, you think of them as tanks with extended range.


so they may in fact be quite useful.

The Colonel wrote:
What's happening? My internet went KAPUT for a few days.


One battle occurred. With a bit of luck no one got killed, and you've started eating corpses and discovering the enormous benefits of level ups.

Swodaems wrote:
Bland, can units still move after a fight without needing a new turn? (Can they enter multiple fights per turn?)


Yep. There was a cap of at most two such combats in Disciples, but I'm not using that convention here.

Swodaems wrote:
If I were to stack with and mount on a mount unit with higher move than me would we be limited by the mount's move or mine? Is it possible for riders and mounts starting in different hexes to meet up and mount mid turn? Could the Rider


The answers, in order, are Mount's move, yes, and wha?

Swodaems wrote:
(Can the main group reach the Bipolar bear's location this turn? I'm having trouble with telling where it is due to the labeling. What of the Grizzled one?)


Noted, I'll try and get the hexographer icons to show better. The animals are where the mountain hexes are spotted with black spots- you should see a bear shilhouette in hexes where there's a bear, for instance, but yeah, there's a problem with it showing not too well against the mountain background.

You can reach the Grizzled bear and the Barberians, and your stack can stop one hex away from the Bipolar bear- it will attack you once you end turn, should you stop there.

Swodaems wrote:
Um, if I were to choose to stun a bear instead of finishing it, what exactly could I do with it?


You could just croak it, or lug it around, corpse-like, to a city of your choice (you've only got one option for now). After that, you could try to tame the bear. If you do pick this option I'll add some level-dependent turning mechanic.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:26 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    It helps if, instead of thinking of them as archers, you think of them as tanks with extended range.

    But but but...they're NOT tanks, they have NO DEFENSE SCORE lol.


    Neither do a lot of Melee units, actually. Granted, Melee units get better stat improvements starting from level 4 onwards in terms of Hits and Damage, but still.

    One can do a fairly vicious combo including Grillphons. I'm thinking it wouldn't go amiss to even nerf them slightly.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:30 am 
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    Okay fine I'll just hush up and let time prove me wrong haha. Really I don't care where we go next cus I can't eat anything yet. Marbit pointed out to me that I could eat any unit that has Magic/Force, but the amount of XP melee units have wouldn't make me level so it's not worth it until I find a unit with more XP to consume. So I'll just sit back and pepper our enemies with fire where-ever we decide to go next.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:34 am 
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    I cooked the corpses into burgers before eating them right?

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:37 am 
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    What corpses? Swod is the one who ate a corpse for XP so he could level and give us that tasty Leadership Bonus, and the other one went back to the Starchild.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:45 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    It helps if, instead of thinking of them as archers, you think of them as tanks with extended range.

    But but but...they're NOT tanks, they have NO DEFENSE SCORE lol.


    Out of all the melee/xxx/xxx units only the Burgermeister has any def score and even then it is only 10. So melee units are no better off than archers and they're restricted to the front rank. In fact archers are somewhat better off due to their higher combat, which lets them get initiative.
    so think FAST TANKS with extended range. ;)

    [EDIT] bah..ninja'd while researching def scores

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:56 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Apart from that, you didn't notice anything unusual about the turn. No wild units popped nor moved nor disappeared mysteriously, no foreign units entered the region.

    Your treasury has 222 Schmuckers.

    You have one Wolf carcass stacked with a new Jolly Bee.


    Swodaems wrote:
    If you're willing to eat the other wolf corpse we have on hand right now, then we may be able to use just the 2 of us to take out the Mad Cow before it can attack, leave the corpse for the empty handed NPC jolly to get later, and then help the rest of the group croak their Bear of choice this turn using your higher move.


    Do we still have the corpse onhand or has it already been sent off to the Starchild ?

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:59 am 
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    Technically I believe it is still with us...if I recall correctly I ordered it to depart earlier, but we haven't properly taken our turn, so maybe BLAND would retconjure it....but then that would defeat the whole point of popping the Jolly in the first place, and we've paid her upkeep a turn earlier than we needed her....

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:02 am 
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    Well the Mad cow is more to the Starchild's taste as It's on the /Magic path which will give 30% xp instead of the Wolf's 10%. It's probably of more use to us than it is to the starchild, if it allows us to take on and defeat more satisfying opponents.


    Last edited by Werebiscuit on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:07 am 
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    Oh well that's no problem! The Jolly has huge move, and the Starchild can eat an infinite number of things. So anything we don't want for ourselves, we send back to our garbage disposal of a ruler :) (which is made all the more disturbing by the fact that I envision the Starchild to be a very cute little humanoid that looks as though it's made out of multicolored, sparkly sugar)
    So If nobody wants the Mad Cow, we just call up the Bee to bring that back home too :)

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:09 pm 
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    Okay....so here's my suggestion, and it depends on Watermonkey's choice of unit path.

    We split up so Swod, Watermonkey, and the NPC-Bee are in stack A, while the rest of us stay in B. One stack goes after the Bipolar Bear, the other goes after the Mad Cow. After that, we rendezvous to take on the Barbarians and then the City, while the Bee resumes corpse duty if any are not eaten.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:16 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Oh well that's no problem! The Jolly has huge move, and the Starchild can eat an infinite number of things. So anything we don't want for ourselves, we send back to our garbage disposal of a ruler :) (which is made all the more disturbing by the fact that I envision the Starchild to be a very cute little humanoid that looks as though it's made out of multicolored, sparkly sugar)
    So If nobody wants the Mad Cow, we just call up the Bee to bring that back home too :)

    Short term, I think we're better served by using the corpses to get units to level 2 (or very close), to help clear out the larger stacks in the area. Send Swodaems & the NPC Bee to the mad cow, and the rest of start dropping the bears. At this stage, every effort should be made to get most of our units to Level 2, since there's a substantial jump in efficiency there; concentrating getting Swodaems to level 3 at this point is not as efficient, since it requires a ton of XP (almost enough to level all other PCs combined). I don't think the Mad Cow is a big deal - we need to level the Bee - but I think Swodaems/bee should drop the cow while the remaining PCs take out the Grizzled Bear with a 2nd healer bee to round out the roster, then we feed the bear to ETheBoyce to try to get a 2nd leadership bonus. The sooner we build up a stack capable of taking the 2nd city hex, the better off we'll be in the long term.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:34 pm 
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    Ok, so barring an objection from someone within a reasonable period of time, here's the orders for this turn.

    We've already ordered the NP-Bee back to the city with the second wolf corpse, and used all it's move so we can't recall it (and nobody should use that corpse anyway in my opinion)
    We order a second NP-Bee to pop and move to join us.
    Split Stack: Swod and NP-Bee in stack A, the remainder in Stack B
    Stack A "mooooo"ve to engage Mad Vow, Stack B move to engage Grizzled Bear.

    Next turn the NP-Bee #1 can meet up with Stack B

    (If however BLAND allows a retconjuration of sending the wolf corpse home because somebody really wants to eat it, then NP-Bee1 stays with Swod, and NP-Bee2 meets stack B to attack the Grizzled bear)

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:33 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Swodaems wrote:
    Could the Rider
    wha?
    Oh dear, my overly verbose (but sadly incomplete,) posts have blown a ignorant cretin's brain again. I shall have to simplify: Is it possible for a rider to dismount from his exhausted beast and continue under his own power? (For that manner, does the Rider use any of his move while riding?)

    If the answer is 'yes (and no)' I have a plan that works to eliminate the mad cow and both bears within the next two turns. It also level the NPC Bee, investigates the house, and places us where our choices for what to move on in the turn after the plan consist of the ruins, the 4 pack of wolves, and the 6 pack of wolves. (I think we should focus on securing the territory we already have instead of grabbing more.)

    (This depends on Werebiscuit's decision about eating the remaining wolf corpse and if WaterMonkey desires to eat the Mad Cow.)

    The first thing that happens is that Bob Enweave eats the wolf corpse. This levels him to 2 and he becomes a mountable heavy.
    Then, I take NPC bee (who is being locked in as a support/magic/force path) up to take down the mad cow. I'll do nothing but attack it and NPC bee does nothing but heal me. NPC eats the corpse and should now have 60 exp.
    NPC bee walks back to our capital alone and I go back to the PCs and mount Bob Enweave. The stack moves into the sole spot that we can reach that is both 1 hex away from the Bipolar bear and also 5 hex away from the house hex. We get attacked by the bear off turn and ETheBoyce soon has a Might/force corpse to eat if he wants.
    Next turn I continue to ride Bob Enweave as the stack moves to investigate the house. We clear that place out if need be and Bob Enweave uses up his remaining move to drop me 1 hex away from the capital. As I pass thru it, I stack up with NPC Bee and we proceed to head to a spot 1 hex away from the grizzled bear. When it attacks the two of us off turn, I use the '.2 net heal' bear duoing strategy I mentioned above to make the fight a very long, but sure, victory that leaves me with a maximum of only 2.6 damage afterward. NPC Bee hits 100 exp and levels to Sprite, increasing his heal by 3.
    When it is our turn again, I charge NPC Bee with the task of dragging the bear back to the capital and I go back to where I left Bob Enweave and the two of us rejoin the main stack.

    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Swodaems wrote:
    Um, if I were to choose to stun a bear instead of finishing it, what exactly could I do with it?


    You could just croak it, or lug it around, corpse-like, to a city of your choice (you've only got one option for now). After that, you could try to tame the bear. If you do pick this option I'll add some level-dependent turning mechanic.
    Would the stack that did the capture get the same exp for capturing as for croaking? (I'm trying to level NPC Bee by feeding him a perfect 100 exp.)


    Last edited by Swodaems on Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:39 pm 
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    Swod, I feel that (as Marbit pointed out) this plan diverts XP away from those who really need it/benefit most. Our Melee need the most XP, Archers second, myself and support both last. Plus the duo strategy has you hogging tons of XP, which is not at all beneficial right now.
    EDIT: Additionally, we need you to be with the main stack as much as possible because you are at present our only Leadership. I only suggested a brief split to have you take the Mad Cow because we would quickly reunite again. Until we have another Manager, or I hit level 2 and take Leadership, we should stick together as much as possible.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:18 pm 
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    I've got no issues with Swodaems' revised plan; the XP from the cow is trivial, and dropping the grizzled bear is a valid strategy. I'd just recommend that we swap out ETheBoyce (who should, I think, be 2nd level by then if he eats the bear) in place of Swodaems for leveling up the Bee, which spreads the XP love around a bit more but leaves the plan otherwise unchanged.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:29 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    I've got no issues with Swodaems' revised plan; the XP from the cow is trivial, and dropping the grizzled bear is a valid strategy. I'd just recommend that we swap out ETheBoyce (who should, I think, be 2nd level by then if he eats the bear) in place of Swodaems for leveling up the Bee, which spreads the XP love around a bit more but leaves the plan otherwise unchanged.

    Agreed, this cuts out the XP hogging potential....although would Ethe also be a Leader unit then...? Because I believe the Leadership-boosted Heal of a Jolly was required for Swod's plan to work on the bear.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:38 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Agreed, this cuts out the XP hogging potential....although would Ethe also be a Leader unit then...? Because I believe the Leadership-boosted Heal of a Jolly was required for Swod's plan to work on the bear.

    ETheBoyce and Swodaems are both on Melee/Might/* paths; they both become Managers at 2nd level.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:46 pm 
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    Okay well as I have said like 3 times now, TECHNICALLY SPEAKING THERE IS NO LONGER A WOLF CORPSE TO EAT!! The NPC-Bee was already ordered to bring it back to the Capital. SO, because your entire plan hinges on that corpse being available to eat (and for that matter, Bob Enweave WANTING to eat it, he has control of his own character after all), you have to await BLAND's ruling on a Retconjuration.
    As an alternate strategy, consider whether your plan would still work if the Wolf Corpse were used to pop an entirely new Archer Mount in the Capital.

    If this plan is still possible, then I'm in favor of it. (Even though I'm worried it will take us longer than I had hope to take the abandoned city, but it's a minor delay)

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     Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:30 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    I've got no issues with Swodaems' revised plan; the XP from the cow is trivial, and dropping the grizzled bear is a valid strategy. I'd just recommend that we swap out ETheBoyce (who should, I think, be 2nd level by then if he eats the bear) in place of Swodaems for leveling up the Bee, which spreads the XP love around a bit more but leaves the plan otherwise unchanged.

    Agreed, this cuts out the XP hogging potential....although would Ethe also be a Leader unit then...? Because I believe the Leadership-boosted Heal of a Jolly was required for Swod's plan to work on the bear.


    There was also another requirement for the plan to work: That the unit involved decided to take Natural armour from the selection of level 2 abilities. Since E already has leadership, so long as he values the +10 def over the +2 move (given that he doesn't get the option of taking +5 move at level 5, he may think it useful,) this isn't a problem. (BLAND, am I reading the rules right when I interpret them to say that ETheBoyce loses his leadership ability when he hits level 3 and cannot buy it back at later levels?)

    However, I would like to ask that the issue of who goes to croak the bear be decided by a GM run coin flip. (Numerically, that 12 EXP from the cow duo would be the only EXP advantage I would have over E after he gets 72 EXP for eating the Bipolar bear. I would gladly send someone else to help the NPC Bee kill the Cow if I could have a chance at the bear if I wasn't the only one who would walk away unharmed due to the fact I give the jolly bee +1 to his heal. If Werebiscuit says that eating the wolf corpse is okay, Bob Enweave becomes the next best unit to send as he'll only take 2 or 3 damage total. The other melee can be expected to take 4 damage total.)

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