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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:18 am 
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LTDave wrote:
Question: About the Combat System, and Stacking.

the rules, page 6 wrote:
Units fight together in stacks of eight and the sum of their attack and defense is taken as a total attack and defense for the stack.


Does this mean that only the first 8 units in a stack contribute attack and defence?

If so, why is there a table for stack with units up to 16?

If not, then what's to stop me putting 90 Stabbers in a stack with a defence value of 90?

It's getting towards the pointy end, when I'll need to start thinking about these things.

Good question. It's clear that rule is completely broken. The Elder Gods could stack 90 pikers for a defense of 630, and you guys could never win.

We have two options that immediately come to mind.
1. Limit the attack and defense calculation to the first eight units in the stack as we did in previous games.
2. Run the stacking bonus out another 8 units until the stacking bonus is 0.1, i.e. your 90 stabbers would have a 9 def instead of 90 and the Elder Gods' 90 pikers would have a 63 defense instead of 630.

I would like everyone to post what you think is the best choice and then vote 1, 2 or a third choice if you have one.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:11 am 
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    Hmm, food for thought. At the moment I cannot tell the two apart, to see which is more abusable in terms of creating mega-stacks. (Because I understand that the problem with mega-stacks is that EG are likely to have them, whereas we aren't, by virtue of having starting with lower econ and being split). It should therefore be possible for even a small stack of ours to dent a huge stack of theirs. The issue is compounded by items. So far, we've seen EG units that are armed to the teeth, resulting in them having triple their natural A and D scores. Any option between 1 or 2 should take this into account.

    In other news plan change for me, as in, I'm still around this weekend. So I'll send you orders for turn 14, but see PM first.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:00 am 
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    I'm for option 1 Adding leadership or spells that give bonuses that affect a whole stack would make the 90 pretty bad. I'd rather have a bunch of stacks in a huge fight then attacking one huge stack behind walls.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:27 pm 
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    FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

    Never mind, carry on.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:37 pm 
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    ?

    I think option 2, except that stacking isn't the only problem here. The whole 65% hits before any casualties thing would also need to be rethought. With 90 units in a stack, that's a lot of hits before anything cwoaks.

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:45 pm 
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    Something underwelming popped. May be salvageable if I'm lucky.

    Anyway, on the issue at hand- I kinda like the 65% rule, precisely because it adds survivability. Then my vote goes to option 1, limit stacks to 8 units. As in, you may stack more if you want, but the extra units do not icrease Attack nor Defense, and do not count for the 65% of Hits before units start to die rule.

    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


    Correction.

    YAAAAAYYY?

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     Post Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:12 pm 
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    Turn 14 Notes:
    1. Cthulhu, a L1 Overlord of the Elder Gods, wearing 4-Eyebooks, Goggles +6 Def LNH, Earbug +6 Def LNH, Cloak Def +6 LNH, Boots of Def + 6 , Greaves of Def +5, Backpack of Def +5, Earring of Def. +5, Breastplate of Def. +4, Token of Defense +4, Shield of Def +3, Necklace of Def +3, Ring of Def +3, riding on the back of a L1 Sand Witch Chieftain’s broom arrives in hex 70.10 from the southeast and croaks Boo 3. The Sand Witch Chieftain is wearing Ring of Def +2 HM, Pair of Dice of Def +2 HM.

    2. Cthulhu and the Sand Witch Chieftain arrive in hex 64.09 from the southeast and croak Rat 4.

    3. Vibur, a L3 Warlord wearing Gorget of Hits +9, Boots of Defense +1, TD +1, Bracers +1, Earring +1, Nipple ring +1, Breastplate +1, Gauntlets +1, Greaves +1, Necklace +1, Shield +1, Ring +1, Broach +1, Belt +1, Hat +1, Paldrons +1, Pair of Dice +1, Backpack +1, Backpack +1 Defense LM, (Unused: Gorget +1) arrives alones at 70.37 from the north and croaks Rat 5.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:17 pm 
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    hmmm, our enemies seem to be putting a lot of effort into magic items. To allies: Do you think magic items are a good investment? I was passing them off as not that good compared to the other actions a caster can do, but with the numbers of items his characters got, I'm second guessing the assumption.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:32 pm 
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    It depends a lot on what kind of caster you have.

    You, for example, have at least one Moneymancer. I can think of the Moneymancer's spells being insanely useful to prop up econ, so I expect all of your turns ended with the caster at 0 juice by spells.

    I have a Dirtamancer and with two exceptions, I kept the fellow busy with casting spells. I did make 3 items from that caster so far, two of which have been high-level though, simply because at that time there was no Dirtamancy to pour juice into.

    If you have a Dollamancer, I think these get item creation bonuses. Also, Dollamancy spells are not as useful.

    So my guess: any of the following disciplines -Predictamancer, Mathamancer, Dollamancer- will likely spend the bulk of their juice on items. Any of the following disciplines -Moneymancer, Turnamancer- will likely almost exclusively deal in spells. Other disciplines, somewhere in between.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:02 pm 
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    I also see he has a unit with the fabrication special, so all those +1 items are probably coming from one of those. The more I think about it, the stronger that special becomes. It takes 3 points for a unit to get fabrication, then he can make 3 items (of 22) to overcome the minus from taking the fabrication special. Then from turn 3+ of existence, he can make every other unit stronger as well. I missed that in unit creation.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:11 pm 
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    Fabrication ain't all that great, because the items can only be used by Specials and Characters.

    I have 35 units with Fabrication, turning out items that I can't use, because I'm not popping Specials or Characters.

    {If only I'd understood all the rules! Cure my lack of foresight!}

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:03 am 
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    LTDave wrote:
    Fabrication ain't all that great, because the items can only be used by Specials and Characters.

    I have 35 units with Fabrication, turning out items that I can't use, because I'm not popping Specials or Characters.

    {If only I'd understood all the rules! Cure my lack of foresight!}


    Well, I have a unit with Fabrication special also. So far I've popped none (apart from Characters, Nat Allies and a couple of captured Critters, I got nothing), but if I were to, it would be nice to use such units. For one, they're Specials. For two, and most importantly:

    Stabbers cost 30 upkeep.
    Archers, if upgraded to move, cost 40 upkeep.
    Wion Hunters, my Special B, who are effectively Archers in disguise only better, need 40 upkeep. Weeeee!

    So it makes sense to forego Archer production entirely.

    On the topic of mutual defense.

    At present, I've got nothing, except for a few high-level cities. Therefore, I can build an army fast (as long as you don't want Special Ds or Knights). Would the Isoceleans need an SG stack parked in their airspace for extra protection of their cities? If so, where?

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:06 pm 
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    There are also lots of natural allies that could make use of all those +1 magic items you have popped. Hobgobwin Knights, Sand and Man Witches, Pit Fiends, all three types of Giants, Marbit Engineers, Luckless, Altruist, Lofty and Tardy Elves.

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:50 pm 
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    LTDave wrote:
    Fabrication ain't all that great, because the items can only be used by Specials and Characters.

    I have 35 units with Fabrication, turning out items that I can't use, because I'm not popping Specials or Characters.

    {If only I'd understood all the rules! Cure my lack of foresight!}


    I'm confused? Each of those fabricators can hold 20 items, which means you'd need 700 magic items before you wouldn't be able to use them. And your fabricators are ranged as well, so just give each of them +20 attack. (in stacks of 8 that would be (20+4)(attack per unit) * 8(units per stack) * 2 (stack bonus) attack = ranged unit wiht 384 attack before any leadership and cost 8*40 = 320 upkeep. It would take you roughly 7 turns to get one of these, but I think this would be better than full stacks of special D's.

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     Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:19 pm 
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    An additional highlight of Turn 13:
    3 Griffons turned by one side.

    Turn 14 Highlights:
    8 stacks of unit from Evil Imagination Land move to 28.49, easy striking distance to Uberwald. Do EIL and the MiniTitans have an alliance treaty?

    EIL has completed Turn 14.
    Isosceleans have completed Turn 14.

    Note: Garrison units can be upgraded to Field units.
    Note: Scout 8 discovers City 12, a L3 Elder God city, with 8 Fire Vampires on the walls at 60.12.


    Last edited by Twoy on Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:38 pm 
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    Yes, we do.

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:01 pm 
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    HerbieRai wrote:
    I'm confused? Each of those fabricators can hold 20 items, which means you'd need 700 magic items before you wouldn't be able to use them. And your fabricators are ranged as well, so just give each of them +20 attack. (in stacks of 8 that would be (20+4)(attack per unit) * 8(units per stack) * 2 (stack bonus) attack = ranged unit wiht 384 attack before any leadership and cost 8*40 = 320 upkeep. It would take you roughly 7 turns to get one of these, but I think this would be better than full stacks of special D's.


    A Good Point, and Well Made.

    This may well be my new approach.

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     Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:03 pm 
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    Question:

    Have we sorted out how combat works yet?

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:16 am 
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    LTDave wrote:
    Question:

    Have we sorted out how combat works yet?

    We don't have a clear winner from the votes. We could use this one with the following additions.

    Limit the attack and defense calculation to the first eight units in the stack as we did in previous games. Also do the hit/damage calculation only on the first eight units. When those eight are dead, then further damage goes to the next eight.

    A fourth option would be to make it like many 4X games and allow absolutely no more than eight units in a stack.

    I have started working on Steam Gentlemen's Turn 14, and am anxiously awaiting input on turn 14 from Koopa Kingdom and the MiniTitans.

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     Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:48 pm 
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    EIL has completed Turn 14.
    Isosceleans have completed Turn 14.
    Steam Gentlemen have completed Turn 14.

    Waiting for Koopa and MT.

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