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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:16 am 
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BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Sihoiba wrote:
There was no way we could defend the base camp, and advance and avoid death from diwigible.


Eh. "No way" is a bit harsh. It depends on pop point allocation to the different sides of the conflict. Even slightly imbalanced in our favour would have made a slow push just as viable as in TBfGB2.


Of course we were told at the start that we would be getting less pop points than the Gk:

"Though the alliance has an initial advantage in numbers, as the battle wears on, this advantage will vanish slowly."

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Sihoiba wrote:
High HP heal at start of turn is awkward, but it's the ability to carry other high hit units on mass which is the real problem I think, as it leaves you with an unassailable high HP unit.


I wonder if I could call this a Feature? Crack commando teams carried over by Airships ... I dunno about you guys but I like the possibilities presented by fast movements of forces. It is a bit different of course when you send one airship into the unknown, and when you know exactly what the enemy placement is like.


Crack Commados being delivered by Chinook is very different that Crack Commando being delivered by a Helicopter Gunship while being able to all attack from the Helicopter Gunship...

If you want large troop carrying airships then I think we first need to invite the rules for ships in Erfworld, and then balance them as a separate type rather than allowing huge flying juggernauts.

Two examples from erfworld. Vinne and co can carry 20-30 small bats on their person, but the dwagon relay can't be used to do mass unit transports just bringing one or two commaders back and forth from the front line.


Last edited by Sihoiba on Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:19 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    So in this, there's the issue of how challenging you want a scenario to be. "The AI is a cheating bastard". CAN we hope to win, even against this? Yes, provided we get more pop points than the Bump. How much more? would a 1.1 ratio in our favour help? How about 1.01? How low can we go? {EDIT: While still finishing in a reasonable time-frame?}


    I assumed it was a lets give the new cost formula a decent field test game in a situation that forces min maxing, not how many ways can the GM with perfect knowledge, different unit rules and the ability to place units anywhere defeat the players. :roll:

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:25 am 
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    Sihoiba wrote:
    Crack Commados being delivered by Chinook is very different that Crack Commando being delivered by a Helicopter Gunship while being able to all attack from the Helicopter Gunship...


    Well, there's ways to get ideas out of this. Maybe also limit carry capacity by Offense? Meaning, a high offense unit needs more space for cannons or whatever and can't carry as many people?

    Nevermind, I need to go now. Will return later.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:34 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    1 or less- well, without caster link abuse, no chance; rule-of-thumb in the military says an attacker should outnumber a defender 3-to-1. A side that's expected to expand and conquer some point to win must be producing more than the defender.


    Well, i kinda agree that losing the base ends the game for the player side. I hope it isn't this way in north wing, Nihila.
    Because:

    Players have this goal: Capture GK base camp.
    So what exactly is GK's goal?: Wipe our forces and defend succesfully.

    GK tagging the base camp with a relay using a huge, fast, tough flier, seeing all the map and starting in the middle of the map, seems unfair.
    You know, handicaps in computer games exist mostly when playing against computer, because most ai's can't think on same level as us. But here, both sides are human and capable of complicated plans. So what is the point of giving 2 equal sides a difference in power?
    There's no way that extra pop points will close the difference between scouts and a map-hack. The rule system we use, makes it nearly impossible to protect scouts in field, they can be destroyed easly. 2 x more pop points will be barely enough to close that gap. We spend at worst 2 turns worth of pop points to scouts, who got croaked no matter how we stacked them or where.
    And don't say that both sides are NOT equal in terms of intelligence because the attackers have more than 1 human players. Having more people makes it harder to coordinate, time interferes between your plans, and your plans might not always match what others want.

    Too much handicap for the attacking side, and this is the result. Nihila in north-wing didn't bother doing tactics like diwigible just because it was good. Well it was something maybe only Parson would have thought about in Erf :D Even without this, we're having a pretty hard time in north-wing, because of the map hack. And here, the defenders had a strong combination which the attackers were unable to counter.

    I think the point here is: The GM needs to feel in-character while playing the npc's. You know, do the actions GK units in this situation would do, not the GM as a human being would.

    Also, carry capacity and hp limit would fix this issue a bit. But HEY...Wasn't this supposed to be a TEST?

    What is the point of testing if the GM KNEW there was an abusable rule, BEFORE starting the game? Wasn't the point of this test to FIND those loopholes and fix them?

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:23 pm 
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    Re the abuse of the rule: I didn't realize I could dwagon relay a swarm of orlies until I started thinking about this turn. Had I realized it earlier, I would have made the map bigger.

    Also, I still don't think the Diwigible is overpowered at all. If you look at your own stacks, you can see that most would put a pretty big hole in a diwigible. Yes, the stack might get croaked in the process, but you'd be trading a roughly 2-300 pt stack for a 422 pt unit. I should also point out that I hadn't noticed the reference to diminishing reinforcements - my intent was and is to give equal points.

    If we give you guys a turn to shoot back, it will be a clear victory for you. You can wipe out a cool 500+ pts without losing near as much.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:34 pm 
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    WaterMonkey314 wrote:
    If we give you guys a turn to shoot back, it will be a clear victory for you. You can wipe out a cool 500+ pts without losing near as much.


    I'm reasonably confident that's the case; I dunno we'll see but anyway if people really want to think about rules change then instead of just floating nerfs about (sooo Northwing) sink your teeth into this.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:39 pm 
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    Taking the allied base camp is not a win. Holding it for one or two turns is not a win. The allies can pop their x00 points worth of units, whatever the chief warlord chooses. Auto attack the diwigible, then the remaining units in range can cwoak the diwigible. If that is not possible, the allies can push forward with existing units, save the pop points until next turn and pop x00 x 2 points of units and cwoak the diwigble next turn.

    My apologies Bland, but I am not particuarly fond of the diwigibles. GK should have GK-type units. though I guess it would be possible for GK to have a "massive dragon" that is similiar to a diwigible.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:41 pm 
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    Twoy wrote:
    My apologies Bland, but I am not particuarly fond of the diwigibles. GK should have GK-type units. though I guess it would be possible for GK to have a "massive dragon" that is similiar to a diwigible.


    WaterMonkey314 did mention at the start that no one knows how GK got hold of 'em :P

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:09 pm 
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    So.... of the options I presented earlier, what will we choose? Restart? Retcon? Other?

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:33 am 
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    WaterMonkey314 wrote:
    So.... of the options I presented earlier, what will we choose? Restart? Retcon? Other?


    Well at the moment we still have a stack in our base camp, how about first you run the attack to kill them off, and we see where we stand.

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     Post Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:01 am 
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    After that, you should see if a x00 point stack can cwoak the diwigible. If it can, then keep going.

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