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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:25 am 
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And since the "fliers should be expensive" thing got here too, I'd like to say here as well that right now I'm not convinced that is the case. I'd keep fliers costing just as they did before.

Maybe, if you want to get the nerf-knife out, reduce the amount of HP that a flier can carry, but again I'm not convinced nerfing fliers in any way is the way to go, for reasons in my last post in the South Wing thread.

(All this applies to South Wing).

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:51 am 
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    Well with the mounting issue perhaps we should simply say that only units of a certain size and below can mount other units.

    We've got examples from the comics that heavy units can't mount other units, so if we've said 10Hits denotes something twoll sized, we can just say only units of 9Hits or less can mount other units.

    This doesn't help with the orlies on dwagons from the South Wing, but we can't draw much at all useful from scenario because it's flawed.

    I might start a game to test out my unit moves to see how it shakes out it in a playtest, unless everyone is opposed to larger maps higher move scenarios.


    Last edited by Sihoiba on Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:21 am 
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    I've got nothing against larger maps. Higher move, fine by me but you probably want to counter-act it by a combo of map size and flier cost.

    There's more things you can try too. For example, a limit on carry-capacity that is move-dependent OR a reduction of move based on encumbrance (ie amount presently carried). The real thing that broke Southwing though was map size and map knowledge though.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:35 am 
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    Bigger the map, lower the chance of victory for the side which can't see every hex.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:39 am 
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    Does the comic show anyone move after dismounting? In the relay system, Ansom would dismount one dwagon and mount another in the same hex, so he'd never move. (move is free inside cities). aka rule that when you mount you lose all your move.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:05 am 
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    Even if it isn't shown as a fact, there's a very high chance that it works like that. And it makes a lot of sense, thinking the Erf's similliarity to turn based games.

    Example: In Civ4, units don't spend move even if the transport carrying them moves.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:08 am 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Bigger the map, lower the chance of victory for the side which can't see every hex.


    Which is why you can't have the GM have a victory condition if they have perfect visibility. The GM can set up a difficult scenario, but one where there is a planned way or ways for the players to win in advance, and perfect visibility allows them to make life for the players more complicated.

    Alternatively you need the two sides facing off against each other and the GM managing the game (like a computer would in a fog of war scenario)

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:28 pm 
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    I think I have an idea. Now, nerfing fliers and introducing tough HP caps is something very Northwing to do. Southwing should try a different approach to design altogether. And here's even a principle I have in mind (yay, buzzwords!)-

    Allowing Informed Reactions or A.I.R. for short. So let's begin this AIR-headed rant by the proposed fix

    A scout of move x can scout 2*x hexes

    and now let's study the consequences.

    For one, it is possible to scout 2*MaxMove away from a hex, and in theory cover that area fully. After all, scouting is "cheap" in many TBS-es. You move your hero on the map, they can see quite a bit around themselves.

    Let's say you've got a hex that you want to keep safe, and want to know how much defense you need to leave there, given the current enemy locations that you know of. An enemy unit could, at least in principle, move on its own power to the hex if it is (MaxMove, or 5) hexes away. So the enemy needs to invest 1HP to bring 1HP to your hex.

    Outside the 5Hex distance, the enemy needs a relay. From up to 10Hexes away (2*MaxMove), which is also an area that you can potentially scout, the enemy can use a relay to the 5Hex zone then what's relayed moves on its own power. So the enemy needs to invest in 3HP to bring 1HP to your hex.

    Of course relays can be longer. Outside the 10Hex zone, the enemy could have a unit to relay a relay unit and a relay-ee unit, say for example a 6HP unit that carries a 2HP and a 1HP unit. In other words, the enemy needs to invest in 9HP in order to bring 1HP to the hex you want to guard. To put this in perspective, a Diwigible (100HP) could be used to relay 16HP* of units to your hex.

    Including aspects of move cost (since high HP units will cost more to be fast), this means that it will be tough(er) for one side to completely surprise another with a crack commando attack. Not impossible, but I wouldn't want to eliminate the possibility of surprise either.

    *: if 6HP of carrier are needed to carry 2 HP of other carrier and 1HP of payload, then 100HP of carrier can deliver 100*1/6 HP of payload.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:31 pm 
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    Moving on, AIR suggests how to design a HP cap.

    Basically, how much "surprise" from beyond the scout horizon do we allow a unit to enable? A Diwigible can bring in 16HP "surprise" (meaning, you've scouted the 10Hex region, you know what's in there and calculate that X HPs of units could strike the hex you want to guard; a Diwigible outside the 10Hex zone adds 16HPs to that X).

    Is 16HP surprise too much? Too little?

    EDIT:

    Also observe that in TBfGB2, where fliers were very expensive, most units were slow. Scouts however were fast because that's how Scouts are useful. In effect, it was the case that a Scout could see 2*(usual) Max Move.

    This is important because it allows you to see a bit further than you can move (without relay trickery :) ), and therefore it offers a slightly larger window of planning.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:40 pm 
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    Well, i think the whole transport limit should be changed.

    A unit can mount any unit with twice of its hit points.

    I think we should add this sentence there:
    A unit cannot be mounted by more than one unit, if this unit lacks the "transport" special.

    This would add a whole new perspective to the play.Thoughts?

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:44 pm 
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    I recall Stanley and Jack being on the same Dwagon.

    And I don't see why a "Transport" special, by itself, would change the problem.

    What IS the problem, any way? I want a clear statement of a problem from anyone suggesting fixes. I'll tell you what problem I see-

    It is possible to deliver a significant offensive force without offering the targeted side any chance, even theoretically, to spot what is going on. AIR-stuff.

    And that's the problem I'm addressing.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:51 pm 
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    That seems a fair summary, with the secondary case that if you don't have a HP limit it's possible to twink the cost formula to create a high attack, high move ranged stack very easily.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:10 pm 
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    Sihoiba wrote:
    if you don't have a HP limit it's possible to twink the cost formula to create a high attack, high move ranged stack very easily.


    Then let's math it and see how big a problem it is. How much would it cost me to make a high attack, high move, ranged stack? Assuming you use the Diwigible to carry 50HP of units of move 1, correct?

    Diwigible was 422 points. Inventing a hypothetical Orc Archer (Ranged, 7Hits*, 14Attack, 1Move, 0Def; cost 32) and Bullet Bird (Ranged, 1Hit, 2 Attack, 1Move, 0Def, cost 5), we make a stack of Diwigible{7*Orc Archer, 1 Bullet Bird} for 651 pop points. It has 7*14 + 2 + 86 = 186 attack.

    (*: you can experiment with other unit combos too; say Orc Archer (Ranged, 9Hits, 18Attack, 1Move, 0Def; cost 41) and Bullet Bird (Ranged, 5Hit, 10 Attack, 1Move, 0Def, cost 23) and a stack Diwigible{5*Orc Archer, Bullet Bird} for 650 cost and 186 Attack)

    OTOH, for 651 pop points I can get 10 LOLCatiushas, 1 Sniper Cat and something else (I've only used 635 points) for an offensive power of 200. And with 3 Defense too. (So the Diwigible stack effectively has just a bit more than half-attack against this. EDIT: specifically, the Diwigible stack would have 116 effective attack against the LOLCatiushas, while the LOLCatiushas would still have the full 200 attack power, making the Diwigible croakable on a bad roll.

    EDIT, edit: so on a very bad roll for the LOLCatiushas, AND a very good roll for the Diwigible, all LOLCats and the Diwigible get croaked.)

    (EDIT: mind you, LOLCatiushas are not efficient for base defense, but let's assume regular engagements in the field. I trust the numbers speak for themselves).

    I thought that the real problem with no HP limit is that

    A unit with too many HP effectively is immortal, since it will fully heal if it survives a turn.

    I'll math that too. Somehow.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:17 pm 
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    Using Bland's formula the Diwigible costs 208. Using my formula, Diwigibles cost 486 points.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:20 pm 
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    Twoy wrote:
    Using Bland's formula the Diwigible costs 208. Using my formula, Diwigibles cost 486 points.


    Eh wot? My spreadsheet says 422.

    (EDIT: round up of Hits*Move/2 + Defense*whatever + Attack + Special. Diwigible is 100Hits, 86Attack, 0Defense, 5Move ranged so

    100*5/2 + 0*whatever + 86 + 86 = 250 + 172 = 422)

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:29 pm 
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    I only checked the early posts of provisional signups. Obvious fail on my part. did GK south pay 422 pop points for diwigibles?

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:34 pm 
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    Presumably. They made a huge chunk of the original allocation of 1500. In fact I think Sihoiba computed that we could see about 1200 Hits of Bump units, leaving 300 unaccounted for. This doesn't include any new units produced after the pop points that Bump got on their turn.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:00 pm 
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    Twoy, with your cost formula, the Diwigible costs around 1600 points. The 100^2 term does a nice job of making it impossible to actually construct. 100 squared is 10 000. The Hits/8 term costs 1250 points by itself.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:22 pm 
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    Let's try and math the HP problem some more. This is not definitive, but it's an approach I'm trying to find out a reasonable cap.

    I'd like to have a reason why 30HP, or 50, or whatever number. Here's to finding out why a given number would make a cap.

    In my cost formula, as units increase in HP the attack cap reduces. This was intentional, to make it so that high-HP units are not good at offense. High-HP units are good at, well, HP however :) so let's see what that implies.

    Returning to the LOLCatiusha vs. Diwigible stack. LOLCatiusha*10 and SniperCat together have 200 Attack and 105 HP. The Diwigible stacks have 186 Attack (which against the LOLCatiushas becomes 116 because of Defense) and 150HP. Yes, more HP for the Diwigible stack, after all the LOLCatiushas spend points on Defense and also a larger chunk of each LOLCatiusha cost goes into attack.

    So the LOLCatiushas need to have a random roll of 75% or better to croak the entirety of the Diwigible stack. The Diwigible stack needs 90.5% or better to completely wipe out the LOLCatiusha stack. Without knowing the probability function it's difficult to tell just how much worse this is, but I'd say it's, worst case, "even". The LOLCatiushas have a better chance to wipe out the Diwigible stack.

    What about the Diwigible on its own? It costs 422, from which I can get 7 LOLCatiushas with 2 points left spare. So I have a Diwigible with 100Hits and (effective) 54Attack vs. 7LOLCatiushas which together have 70HP and 133 Attack. The Diwigible cannot croak all LOLCatiushas but the LOLCatiushas can croak the Diwigible if they roll 75.2% or better. Alone, the Diwigible is way worse in the offense department.

    Now, this was just one case. A more general approach is to say something like this: a unit has X hits (and we impose 0Def and 5Move to make it Diwigible-like). Assume also that it carries the cheapest, best-offensive stack it can carry. Then, compare this stack to a stack of some other smaller units; both stacks should cost the same. What odds do each of the stacks have to wipe-out the other?

    I think that since the attack cap gets vicious as Hits increase, similar comparisons will reveal similar results as we increase the Hits.

    If a unit has X hits, then it can carry X/2 Hits of small units. Small units can sum attack that is twice their hit value, so our X hits unit can make a stack with X+Attack Cap(X) offense. The ratio of this number to X will get worse as X increases, since Attack Cap(X) limits attack sharply for high HP units.

    OTOH, as a unit grows larger it can carry more very slow and cheap units, so maybe a 200HP Diwigible with enough Orc Archers would fare better against its weight in LOLCatiushas.

    Then, there's the amount of attack you need to field against a high HP unit to kill it. I'll try and "math" that too somehow, but it's fuzzier.

    In principle, any HP amount can be killed. The thing with High HP units is that they will kill something, even on a bad roll. However, a stack of small units needs to be at least a certain size to guarantee downing the Diwigible.

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     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:33 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Sihoiba wrote:
    if you don't have a HP limit it's possible to twink the cost formula to create a high attack, high move ranged stack very easily.


    Then let's math it and see how big a problem it is. How much would it cost me to make a high attack, high move, ranged stack? Assuming you use the Diwigible to carry 50HP of units of move 1, correct?

    Diwigible was 422 points. Inventing a hypothetical Orc Archer (Ranged, 7Hits*, 14Attack, 1Move, 0Def; cost 32) and Bullet Bird (Ranged, 1Hit, 2 Attack, 1Move, 0Def, cost 5), we make a stack of Diwigible{7*Orc Archer, 1 Bullet Bird} for 651 pop points. It has 7*14 + 2 + 86 = 186 attack.

    (*: you can experiment with other unit combos too; say Orc Archer (Ranged, 9Hits, 18Attack, 1Move, 0Def; cost 41) and Bullet Bird (Ranged, 5Hit, 10 Attack, 1Move, 0Def, cost 23) and a stack Diwigible{5*Orc Archer, Bullet Bird} for 650 cost and 186 Attack)

    OTOH, for 651 pop points I can get 10 LOLCatiushas, 1 Sniper Cat and something else (I've only used 635 points) for an offensive power of 200. And with 3 Defense too.


    You're not making a comparison that tests my statement.

    What you should be comparing is the 7*Orc Archer + 126HP Carrier stack, versus the best flying ranged stack you can build if limited to units with 30HP. 8 Unit stack versus 8 unit stack designed for the same role, massive mobile flying firepower (unlike your comparison to the only 3 move non flying LOLCatiushas). Any comparison between ground units and flying units, is always going to show the ground units are more efficient. Then try upping the defence of both stacks and compare costs.

    7 Orc Archers Cost: 41*7 = 287
    1 Orc Carrier: 315+2x where 2x is the attack you want it to have. Maximum is 101 so
    602+202=804
    217 attack, 5 move, with 126 damage required to cwoak the lead unit.
    (Note 70 more points making each of the Orc Archers 5 defence, giving a 4.375 defence stack)

    versus

    4 Orc Archer Cost 41*4 = 164
    4 Orc flying mount (Hits 18 Attack 28 Move 5 = 101 points) = 404 points
    568 points for a 184 Attack 5 move with 18 damage required to cwoak the lead units.
    (maximum defence costs 40 points for the orcs and 68 for the mount)

    874 points for 217 attack, 5 move, 4.375 defence 189 Hits, stack
    versus
    676 points for 184 attack, 5 move, 5 defence, 108 Hits stack

    Neither is efficient, but the former is much easier to profitable battle than the latter.

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