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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Erfman the Barbarian

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Erfman the Barbarian
Level 1 Dollamancer (Novice)
Hits: 6 Combat: 2 Defence: 2 Move: 8 Juice: 100/100
Upkeep: 150s
Purse: empty

Quote:
There was only darkness, no sound, no light, nothing... not that you had any eyes to see or any ears to hear or any form whatsoever... you existed only as a possibility of what could be in the endless void of nothingness! Then suddenly *pop* you existed, you had arms, you had legs and there was enough light to see the world around. Thoughts began to form in your head about who you were as you took in the sights of the world around you. You stood in a room made out of strong stone walls illuminated by a large glowing portal that stood immediately in front of you. You were in the portal room of your sides capital and last remaining city. You were a caster a Dollamancer no less... as the knowledge of your discipline began to seep in to your head the sound of conflict could be heard. The clashing of blades, the sound of units fighting for their lives. Suddenly the portal in the room flicked out and you were bathed in darkness once again. Had you croaked already? There was an almighty rumble like the sounds of an earthquake as the walls around you came crashing down. The one slight blessing was as the walls and ceilings crumbled the light returned. But alas then you felt it... you were alone... newly popped and your side was no more... you were now a barbarian!


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Looking around the Hex all that is left of the city is ruins, rubble and debris litters the area and the only other units in the hex seem to be collapsed upon the ground. The portal is gone leaving only the stone beneath it's base. Two large chests also stand out.

What do you do?

You may post multiple suggestions but please rank them in order of priority and I will fit in as many actions as possible in to the round depending on the groups decision or the amount of votes each action gets.

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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:27 pm 
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    Definitely check out the guys lying down.
    If they attack, then in all likelihood this thread would end right about there, so I'm not going to bother putting in a contingency.
    Dollamancy -> analyze items, take the best ones and if raw material can be created from anything, halt action chain so decisions can be made about whether it is worth it.
    Go check out the mystery apples and the treasure chests. Gather the apples- maybe re-shape some of those clothes into a sack for the apples, and gather some of that wood? Then pop open the treasure chests. If they're trapped, then again this thread will be a very short one and I'm not gonna bother with a contingency.
    If there's juice, I vote for nabbing the clothes they're wearing for golems. Possibly the wood for scarecrows, too?

    Then, if move remains, check out the neighboring hexes...?

    Just curious: I was considering voting for retconjurer, but was worried about what would happen if it actually passed. Would that have been allowed?

    EDIT: Oh, by the way, by "then" I don't mean X > Y in terms of priority. I mean that this is the action chain I vote to happen; I mean X happens, then Y happens, then Z happens.

    Other EDIT: Juice use. Right. Um... Either improve the axe if it's the better one (This may be axing for trouble...) or, if it's the spear, expand my spear of influence. (Whoever took the capital is probably still around, and while I respect the golem for scouting, I think that the juice maintenance would be a bit on the bad side due to the principle of accumulation. Of course, if it's, like, a really low juice maintenance, then hay would be fine, but I don't think there's a way to find out in advance.

    Third EDIT: I support eating fruits until the upkeep is gone.

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    Last edited by mnwxy on Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:30 pm 
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    0) Second the "check guys/bodies"; if bodies, claim bodies so they don't depop.
    1) Eat 1 fruit and see if feeling of "unpaid upkeep" disappears; if not, eat more fruit until it does (save seeds to plant)
    2) Open chests (looking for gems or valuables that seem to be convertible to schmuckers)
    3) Make a tiny (but mobile) flying angry-bird golem

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    Last edited by WurmD on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:42 am, edited 51 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:48 pm 
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    0) check guys/bodies and claim their stuff; Are the soldiers from our side, or were they still wearing a crest from other side?
    1) Use some juice to check/disarm traps on the chests and open them and get stuff
    2) Equip ourself and give it basic bonus
    3) Eat 1 fruit and see ; if we dont have our upkeep yet (from chest +fruit) keep eating. if we have our upkeep and the soldiers are still alife and barbarian, try to give one fruit to one of them (making sure there are no weapons near him). If all goes well, talk to the unarmed soldier, ask what happened and invite him to join us.
    4) Make a tiny (but mobile) flying golem (was thinking something like the paper golems from Chirriro), and send it to scout other hexes.
    5) If we have our upkeep paid, use the rest of the juice/actions on our equipament, saving juice to pay golem maintenance, if not go to the hex where is most likely we get our upkeep.

    *Edit: if the golem doesnt have scout special it will auto attack, right? So what we should make is a tiny, fragile, weak, cheapest possible golem with flight, scout, and ideally stealth. I would make it from leather.


    Last edited by Gaunlet on Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:49 pm 
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    Search the four bodies, claim them.
    Select the best weapons and armor.
    Don the best armor.
    Search chests.
    Eat one or more fruits.

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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:28 pm 
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    Twoy wrote:
    Search the four bodies, claim them.
    Select the best weapons and armor.
    Don the best armor.
    Search chests.
    Eat one or more fruits.

    I vote for all actions specified herein, in order of priority.

    I would like to append the following:
    Experiment with remaining Actions for Golem creation. Prioritizing something easy to maintain over all other features.

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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:44 pm 
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    I'm a bit confused... Why is everyone leaning towards golem creation? I think the scouting special was bestowed by lookamancy, and scouting was the only thing I can think of hat was beneficial (Mount would be nice, but not perfect). Golems cost upkeep and items, as far as it is known, do not.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:11 am 
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    What is a Golem but a Juice-powered meatshield? Why would we risk fighting ourselves, if we could make a Minion to fight for us?

    Especially since something just ended our Side, we want to make sure we don't instacroak in the first serious encounter (Hobokens aside).

    Plus, maybe it'll be good practice? We're only Novices, after all. Need to get cracking and find all the secrets of Dollamancy!

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:25 am 
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    Though items dont cost upkeep, golems are much more powerful (cost/strenth) in the short run. And we need to live to have a long run....

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:05 am 
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    Principle of accumulation:
    Let's say that a golem has 10 juice cost per turn (? I mean, then a dollamancer is worth as much as about a stack of assorted units on its own, which sounds about right.) And perhaps say that it costs 50 to make one and 2^n*5 for each level +1 for an item, with, like, 50 for a special like flying or shockamancy (two incredibly unfair ones that probably would be at the very least adept-class).
    Let's say that we happen, ten turns in, to meet an enemy 8-stack of stabbers and by then we made 2 Angry Birds and some generic heavies (3?).
    Assuming we get a +n stack bonus (? I have no idea, really, how this works) and leadership = level = 2, then we have about (bird = 1/1/1/12, heavy = maybe 2/2/3/8) -> two useless birds, which would be outclassed by an 8-stack of stabbers purely if they had 0/0/0/0 because of the stack bonus and a heavy with, like, 4/2/3/8.

    Compared to the artifact bonus we could have gotten from the used 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 10(10) + 10(10) + 10(9) +10(9) + 10(8) = 610 juice, which probably could have gotten either an item with shockamancy enough to disintegrate a stack (Assuming ace has, like, 700 juice and has a 50% juice discount [probably not how it works, but hey, that's just a theory] then with him healing the bears, rewiring cap+blaster+jetpack we could have gotten the equivalent of Slately's stuff; assuming we pumped some into the jetpack and put the rest into an about-as-powerful blaster (50% juice discount to make things seem a little less OP for novitiate casters) when this blaster is one-shotting flying knight-class über units), I'm certain that we could tank several heavies without skipping a breath, and anything without flying or archery or some sort of terrible special wouldn't be able to hit us as we fly in the air.

    I, of course, know that this is probably off by a lot, in both directions. But if we assume we could make a heavy about as good as an archon, it... really doesn't make things better. Ten of those golems wouldn't really stand a chance against the flying dollamancer with the laser gun. This is just my opinion; in no way am I saying that this is 100% truth. However, this is, to the best of my knowledge, a reasonable estimate based on what the fricking hell happened in Jetstone.

    Seriously, Ace is goddamn OP.

    P.S. For anyone griping about materials, we did happen to pop next to a ton of wood and metal...

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:26 am 
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    Oh, also- I think that in general evasion might be better than direct combat, and either mount golems or items would do that. This is mainly because, while a caster might be good, there are very few ways a novice caster level 1 can defeat a side (excluding Retconjuring, because seriously, what CAN'T Retconjuring do) and all of them involve either Mathamancy, Turnamancy, or Moneymancy, so we can't really pull this off. Flight seems to be both a source of extra move and a way to evade non-archers/fliers. Since an army seems to mostly be non-archers/fliers (citation: Every non-Stanley army that has been seen) I believe getting a flying item in order would be tantamount to survival.

    Once more: Just what I think. Oh, and Th Revanchist:

    Why make a minion to fight for you when you don't have to fight at all?

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:40 am 
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    You check over the bodies of the four units in the Hex, there are two pikers and two gobwins. Based on their clothing the two Pikers do indeed belong to your fallen side the gobwins however do not wear the livery of the side. One Piker and one Gobwin are croaked, you claim their bodies and from the Piker you take the spear and armour due to your innate dollamancer senses telling you they are in better condition than the Gobwin gear. The remaining piker and Gobwin are incapacitated.

    2 actions used up

    What do you wish to do with the incapacitated units?

    Taking a piece of fruit you very carefully eat it making sure to save the seeds and claim them once you are done. A feeling of being satisfied washes over you. (Your upkeep for the turn has now been paid)

    1 actions used up.

    Wary of traps you suddenly recall a simple dollamancer spell 'Wires and fires and snares oh my!' Casting for the first time you are filled with a rush of euphoria as your dollamancer senses become extremely sensitive. Checking over the chests you can not detect any mechanisms on the chests other than their hinges and their locks. The first chest is unlocked but the second chest is locked. Carefully opening the second chest you are surprised to find it is much much larger on the inside than it is on the outside. It is however unfortunately empty... or more accurately it was empty, as you stare in to the chest the two bodies that you have claimed and the fruit seeds appear at the bottom of the chest.

    2 actions used up. 25 juice used.

    What do you wish to do about the locked chest?


    Quote:
    On Golem creation.

    The more complicated Golem you attempt to make the higher chance of failure there will be. It will also take longer and cost more juice to make.

    Golems will not have a maintenance cost in schmuckers but upon creation will be bestowed with a certain amount of juice by the caster. Each turn its upkeep cost will be taken from this pool. When this pool is empty the golem will become inactive and will have to be recharged with juice before it will become active again.

    In order to create a golem the caster will need material resources (wood, cloth etc) and will use both juice and move. If the caster does not have the necessary resource some resources may be paid for in schmuckers instead.


    A simple Golem for a novice caster will take an entire turn to make. (You can ofcourse still eat during this time)

    Non speaking units such as Golems must be given specific instructions and may auto-engage if unled. Their actions however can be used to complete tasks.


    3 actions remain for the turn. What do you do next?

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:34 am 
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    100 juice: I don't think I've seen anyone else quantify it like that, so that and the other stats suggest to me that this is likely using my mechanics, or something very similar. Assuming that that's the case, then a few points:

    1) In the short term, golems are around ten times better value than gear; Erfman with a led and healed golem beats the tar out of Erfman with an enchanted weapon. (There has to be some reason to make golems rather than gear. I'm assuming that Ace's raygun required tapping money/juice stored in the sceptre, else why the gun fetish.) Weapons are long-term, having no upkeep and being reusable if the wielder dies.

    2) Barbarian scout golems don't work. Edelbert Spore allowed them, but I interpreted [Wanda's uncroaked stacks disbanding when she went barbarian] and [Stanley taking one max stack when he fled TBfGK] as meaning that you need a capital or an ally to sustain multiple stacks. (Unled non-commanders autodisband?) If that's the case, the birds would ignominiously disband on breaking stack.

    3) Flying won't be available; that's an adept perk. (Bill has nothing that flies, or which gives specials of any sort. I have classing up as giving perks that depend on the insights used.) I wouldn't expect any gear to do anything more interesting than +n before adept. Speed boots would work; or as we call them down here, runners. I'd call that a +4 for all 100 juice.

    EDIT: @ mnwxy: Uh, maybe? Jillian says a lot of things which are often kind of disjointed from the rest of the story, I don't remember. It might be that there's a single 'shockwave' on losing the last capital site, which disbands all stacks except those containing the ruler or maybe an heir or maybe any commander(?), but after that you can restack at will? I'd say Occam's Razor favours a state-based rule rather than event-based, but it could go either way. I'm not actually the GM*.

    *No matter how many ideas I could veto if I were.

    EDIT 2: I guess 100 isn't a particularly unusual discretisation and I should assume less. Then again, it's at least partly inspired by my mechanics now, so maybe I should actually assume more.

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    Last edited by Twofer on Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:27 am 
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    We have 3 actions and 75 juice, upkeep paid. I sugest one of the following:
    1- create a camaleon cape, or something to hide us + the chest. Maybe the fallen trees could be good to hide;
    2- create a golem or item that will give us more actions: the most likely to work on my opinion is the scout golem, but if we can make boots that give us more move and flying, sure, go for it.

    Now I think we should go for the first, wich is more likely to be accomplish with the actions and juice we have and go for the number 2 next turn.
    I understand that we pop with some inate knowledge of erf rules, do we know if barbarian scouts are possible? Do we think we can make them?

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:07 am 
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    I'm just going to do some hand-waving and ignore the fact that Tramennis is still using those "hey! I'm going to instantly make a gun for you! And a cap that fricking nullifies Thinkamancy AND Foolamancy! Oh, and while I'm at it, why not add another feature to my flying device!"

    Can we determine what kind of magic the bigger-on-inside chest uses? For some reason I have the urge to get two of these to see what happens...
    Is it resizeable?
    I vote try and examine the piker- can we tell what form his incapacitation came in?
    Well. With the "put N juice in" golem thing, then things change. Hm...
    After piker examination, I think... What's the lock made of?

    EDIT: Also, what's the chest made of?

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:17 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    If we can fabricate a medkit/defibrillator/etc. and use it, we might be able to make the incapacitated friendly live through the round (assuming he's wounded to the auto-croak level). That seems like a higher priority than personal gear or golems at the moment, if only because he'd likely have valuable intelligence. If he's going to live anyway, then no point.

    The incapacitated gobwin we can just croak for experience.

    As for the locked chest, I'd say that fabrication continues to be our best friend. We should be able to dollamance up an appropriate key, or failing that a set of lockpicks. Or a crowbar.

    Edit: Typo corrections.


    Last edited by Exate on Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:19 am 
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    Good discussion all around =)

    0) I second examine incapacitated Piker, try to help if think possible
    1) I second examine locked chest with dollamancy, and try to open it with dollamancy (perhaps key, lockpicks or crowbar)
    2) Carefully plant the seed :)

    I can see the meta-think gamer mentality utility value of "croak goblin for experience", but if Erfman has some higher degree of empathy/consciousness he might think that goblins are not innately enemy or evil, and thus may be worth helping as well; or at least not deserve summary execution.

    Also, this
    Quote:
    I understand that we pop with some inate knowledge of erf rules, do we know if barbarian scouts are possible? Do we think we can make them?

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    Last edited by WurmD on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:41 am, edited 5 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:23 am 
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    Wait- do things like medikits and other discipline-related stuff fall under Dollamancy? I always assumed that they were made by their appropriate discipline. Like the healing cry wand of Pierce, the rhyme-o-mancy guitar of Olive Branch, the "dirtamancy item" Erfmover, etc.

    But if we can, I'm game!

    By the way, has anyone here read Discworld, where we are introduced to Ricewind's sapient pear wood chest? Just wondering, because we happen to have a bigger-on-the-inside heat already, and that would just be hilarious.

    Oh, and another question; how much bigger on the inside is that chest? And does it just automagically suck stuff in that's ours?

    EDIT: Also, Twofer, didn't Jillian-as-barbarian reference having to feed multiple stacks? Not 100% sure though.

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    Last edited by mnwxy on Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:54 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    mnwxy wrote:
    Wait- do things like medikits and other discipline-related stuff fall under Dollamancy? I always assumed that they were made by their appropriate discipline. Like the healing cry wand of Pierce, the rhyme-o-mancy guitar of Olive Branch, the "dirtamancy item" Erfmover, etc.
    It's all pretty speculative... but we have precedent for dollamancy creating items which grant abilities that unquestionably fall under other disciplines. Ace's gear examples include blasters which shoot direct attack spells (which are shockamancy) and grant specials (which is weirdomancy), at the very least.

    We also have precedent for non-dollamancers creating items which fall within their own disciplines, though; it may not be the best example since an Arkentool is involved, but Ivan Poe linked with Charlie to make a Dirtamancy/Carnymancy item- and none of the disciplines involved are normally thought of as ones which make items. So clearly casters can make items within their own discipline, although how easy or difficult this is for any given caster types remains unknown.

    Essentially this is going to come down to GM fiat, I think. It's not outside the realm of possibility that it could work, but it's also possible that it would require a higher level of mastery than a new-popped caster possesses (as Ace is an adept), or that it's not possible at all for whatever reason.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:23 pm 
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    I think we should use some juice to open the locked chest.

    Plant the seed from the first fruit.

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