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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:11 am 
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PlotArmour wrote:
I count 68 dwagons...


Yup. 64 dwagons arranged in a column, plus 4 as outriders. Plus a bunch of archons. Battleships and fast frigates with advanced weapons. Jillian has frigates too. And gwiffens and megalogwiffs-- call them destroyers and dreadnaughts. So we're headed for the Battle of Jutland. Meanwhile, Gobwin Knob's ground forces will keep Sticky Trem occupied.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:14 am 
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    Oh, and before I forget - Grand New Years to everyone (in advance).

    Hmmm. In the last panel... is it Wanda going "Eyuh"? I wonder why she doesn't want Oss calling her mistress. She doesn't seem to mind it from Ansom.

    Of course she is treating Ansom differently. She seemed to pick the word "conversion" carefully (not like it was the word she'd normally use for what happened), plus the "oh hey, if it disturbs you I wont show you what I do to your father. Or your lover..." looks like she want to hurt him a bit, maybe because of her own uncertainties over who Jillian is really there for.

    PlotArmour wrote:
    I'm not convinced it even is erroding... his fanaticism early on seemed like it would be impossible to kill off, and in this comic he backs down when Wanda stares at him... seems to me like she can control him when push comes to shove. It just seems wrong that her control/influence can be broken... I certainly couldn't see Stanley losing control of a Dwagon.


    Well dwagons... how smart are they as units? Free will wise? Do they think like people or like animals?

    Yes, I don't know about Ansom actually turning or whether that is possible. Although imagine how terrible it would be if a decrypted's (well, a sentient one) loyalty could errode but the control of the pliers meant they couldn't do anything about it.

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    Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:23 am 
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    Dr Pepper wrote:
    PlotArmour wrote:
    I count 68 dwagons...


    Yup. 64 dwagons arranged in a column, plus 4 as outriders. Plus a bunch of archons. Battleships and fast frigates with advanced weapons. Jillian has frigates too. And gwiffens and megalogwiffs-- call them destroyers and dreadnaughts. So we're headed for the Battle of Jutland. Meanwhile, Gobwin Knob's ground forces will keep Sticky Trem occupied.


    I'm not sure GK's ground forces can do anything at the moment (I guess they maxed out their movement getting where they are). Parson's only suggestion for them was to have Wanda fall back to consolidate with them in the forest.

    And poor Sticky Trem. I guess he can send a message about what he is seeing, and maybe ready the archers. It must be terrible to be stuck in such a seemingly powerless position, hopefully he doesn't let it get him down.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:54 am 
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    Stanley really s easily manipulated, Wanda admitted to doing as such herself... But she has forgotten that she only has his ear when she is in the capital, and when the crap hits the proverbial fan he is probably going to be asking for advice, and he seems most likely to ask Parson. And who has Parson's ear? Sizemore & Maggie. And who has Sizemore's ear? Janis the hippimancer, who actually told Sizemore to give Parson advice during a upcoming chaotic event she found out about with predictamancy.

    Of course, we cannot forget the turmoil coming to Jetstone either... Jealously & intrigue, all the players think they are playing different games. Tremenous, Ossomer, Ansom, King Slately, Wanda, & Jillian are currently heavily involved in a dangerous game of politics & succession. The normal rules of succession are known, but I have a feeling decryption is going to have some "interesting" consequences, to say the least :o.

    Pretty much a game of Russian roulette... We don't know who is going to die, or how many but it's pretty much guaranteed that someone is about to croak for good.

    The decrypted, Ansom especially, seem to be able to think for themselves... Wanda seems to have to manually correct Ansom's thought process, and she just left him alone with a good portion of the army, where he can function and think independently without Wanda constantly making "corrections". And if Wanda dies, what happens to the decrypted? Are they tied to the wielder of the Arkenpliers? If that is so, who will wield them? What happens if a decrypted unit like Ansom picks them up?

    And what of King Slately? Will his entire side disappear? Will his death cause his Decrypted heir to inherit the entire side? Will he make Tremenous an heir designate specifically to prevent either of those two things from happening? Does anyone in Erfworld know what the protocol is if there is both a decrypted heir and a regular heir designate?

    I am beginning to see some similarities between Ossomer and Alexander the Great, and have seen some similarities for awhile between Tremenous and Caligula. (If you haven't noticed, I've also been mixing up Tremenous and Ossomer's names a few times) If you want to know where I am getting my info from, read their wikipedia articles...

    Alexander the Great's assassination of rivals to gain the throne and being manipulated by his mother during his rule?
    Caligula defying a prediction that said he had "no more chance of becoming emperor than of riding a horse across the Bay of Baiae" by erecting a temporary bridge across said bay and riding his favorite horse Incantus across it, while wearing the breastplate of the aforementioned Alexander the Great?
    Rumors of insanity in the one, and rumors of megalomania and paranoia in the other?

    Reality is stranger than fiction, and there is quite a bit of assassination in those two articles... I'm pretty sure the succession games have just begun in Erfworld, and no one knows the rule's they are playing by.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:11 am 
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    Slowness wrote:
    And if Wanda dies, what happens to the decrypted? Are they tied to the wielder of the Arkenpliers? If that is so, who will wield them? What happens if a decrypted unit like Ansom picks them up?


    Considering their effect on Uncroaked (and Decrypted are a kind of advanced uncroaked), I suspect that'd be a short-lived experiment, one way or the other.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:15 am 
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    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:

    Well dwagons... how smart are they as units? Free will wise?


    Free will? The entire concept of "free will" baffles most Erfworlders, as the Summer Updates made more than clear.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:31 am 
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    Slowness wrote:
    Will he make Tremenous an heir designate specifically to prevent either of those two things from happening?


    Can you even designate a new heir when it's not your turn?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:35 am 
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    Here's what I think will happen:

    - Wanda will croak
    - Jack will be turned after his veil is blown
    - Tower will go down, Jetstone is defeated, which takes away a huge enemy from the RCCII
    - Ossomer retreats with the pliers toward Ansom
    - Slately will be decrypted and become Stanley's little toy/pet
    - Wanda has to rebuild her army, so will GK
    - Battle will be shifted towards fighting Transilvyto and FAQ, but Parson will also learn more about Charlie and maybe reveal some secrets about him

    - The unkown caster will either be Vanna or Charlie himself/herself
    - Stanley will send Parson along with Ansom in future battles, the two will gain mutual respect towards eachother
    - Don keeps bringing down Transilvyto, which causes Vinny to ally up with Don's enemies and betray his empire
    - Bunny will die in these events, causing Vinny to go mad and ruin his new empire even more so than Don ever did

    ETC ETC

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:49 am 
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    I wonder what would happen if Wanda loses the pliers. Would the deycrypted still follow her without questions? Would they even try to turn to their former sides?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:33 am 
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    Updog wrote:
    I wonder what the significance of the dwagon formations is, yellows in a row up front, greens at the back, reds in the middle and blues and pinks interspersed on either side of the reds.



    Green rear: has to be in back otherwise other units fly into the gas.
    Red/Puple center: Could be for structural damage. Fire and sonics are also area effect attacks. They can damage everything above or below.
    Blue + Pink: The mix could work well together. Pink immobilizes and blue zapps. Probably effective against individual targets.
    Yellow: My first thought was cannon fodder or they might be faster. However, real world acid will dissolve gelatin or sugar. Yellow dragons might do excessive damage to gwiffons.


    Updog wrote:
    Also, why do you think ossomer is opting to use ansom's carpet and not a dwagon, surely a dwagon would boost ossomer's combat ability, unless the carpets provide an as of yet, unseen bonus?


    Ansom is often hovering while dragons will often circle or land. The carpet is probably much more maneuverable.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:02 am 
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    Very interesting update. As a small aside, I wonder precisely how large the dwagon fleet is by now. 68 dwagons are a lot, but it seems likely to me that some are held in reserve in GK itself and more are spread out for the Pony Express system Parson invented. With an average of 2 new dwagons tamed each turn, GK might readily have 120 dwagons or so, with a possible extra number added from city production.

    What I see as one of the riskiest parts of this aerial attack as far as Stanley's attitude is concerned is that it relies so heavily on dwagonpower. If the battle for Jetstone turns into a meat grinder with heavy losses of dwagons, Stanley will become furious. I am not entirely certain that even Decrypting the slain dwagons will be enough to stave off his wrath as Decrypted dwagons would no longer be 'his.'

    I am convinced that Wanda was lying to Ansom. I feel she is still jealous of him because Jillian once (as she saw it) chose Ansom over her. Thus, as others here have already indicated, she merely shunted him aside so he would not be there to steal Jillian again.

    Looking very much forward to seeing the next update.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:29 am 
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    Hmph. More Dwagons than I thought. Interesting how Wanda will take "Mistress" from Ansom, and not Ossomer. I wonder what that yellow unit on the board mixed in with all the pink ones is.

    Also, Ansom thought bubble:

    Quote:
    Brudder took karpet. Nasty brudder. I has a sad. :'(

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:45 am 
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    I personally think this one is just Wanda being genre savy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:08 am 
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    elmagnifico wrote:
    Interesting how Wanda will take "Mistress" from Ansom, and not Ossomer.

    Wanda's pretty goth. I bet muscle guy isn't her type.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:36 am 
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    So you're saying Ansom is really an emo whiner?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:18 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    I very much disagree that Stanley can't disband Wanda. Unless there's some rule technicality such as Wanda's actually a mercenary and not a GK unit, than the idea of being immune to disbanding is completely alien to Erfworld.


    Also, if she is a mercenary, then it is unclear who the decrypted actually belong to. When allied with a side, presumably that side will cover upkeep. If that is the case, then if Wanda breaks alliance, then she would have to cover the upkeep for the decrypted army from her purse, which would likely be impossible.

    Ofc, that would mean that you can promote an allied unit to Chief Warlord status, which seems a little unreasonable.

    I wonder if there is a distinction between a barbarian being hired and 2 "capital" sides forming an alliance.

    If a side hired a croakamancer from the MK, would any uncroaked units belong to the side that does the hiring.

    MonteCristo wrote:
    One nice question would be to find out what would happen is Stanely gave a decrypted an order that conflicted with Wanda's... though i think my money would be on Wanda in that case...


    I think it would obey Stanley for an actual order. However, if there is any discretion, then it would follow Wanda's order. In effect, decrypted would likely follow the spirit of Wanda's orders, but the letter of Stanley's.

    Quote:
    the ONLY thing that might protect Wanda from disbanding MIGHT be the pliers


    It really comes down to the "turning" mechanic.

    Presumably, the sequence of events was something like

    - Stanley killed Banhammer
    - Jillian became Queen, so the Faq units didn't disband
    - Stanley turned all the living casters in Faq
    - Stanley burned the cities to the group
    - Jillian became a barbarian

    Turning presumably switches the unit's formal side. However, the unit tends to have low loyalty.

    Thus, Wanda is likely a GK unit, it is just that she has low loyalty.

    Also, Stanley make have turned the units during the battle, because he realised how valuable casters are (but accidentally killed the predictamancer).

    Quote:
    The only thing that might protect her is the pliers


    Right. They are an unknown. She is the first non-Ruler to attune (at least that we are aware of).

    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    PlotArmour wrote:
    Quote:
    Jillian did not disband when her father croaked because she was a HEIR

    How did Sizemore fare when Saline IV was croaked?


    Uh, Sizemore was with Stanley when Saline was croaked, you know, the heir of GK?


    It seems reasonable that if a side has an Heir, then its units don't disband if the Ruler is killed.

    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    And Wanda telling it like it is? The decrypted don't truly belong to GK any more then their original side, they belong to her


    Right, I think that was a pretty significant statement.

    PlotArmour wrote:
    I thought the mechanics on those sorts of things were kind of clear. Heirs, at least, will survive the death of their side and go barbarian. Any troops under their command at the time (or at the very least in their personal stack) don't disband but remain serving them. This we learnt from Jillian.


    It is unclear. In fact, there seems little point in having an Heir if killing the Ruler still turns the side barbarian. At minimum, the other cities freeze, and if the Heir retakes the capital, they unfreeze without any units disbanding.

    Ofc, there is still the issue with regards to what happens to field units that aren't with the Heir during the transition.

    I think the likely difference is that Faq lost all of its cities and thus Jillian went barbarian.

    Also, when Don King became King, he was in the capital at the time, so presumably, the transfer of power was instant, with no units disbanding.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:42 am 
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    theseus2x wrote:
    I interpret it differently : Stanley wasn't really asking Parson for advice. Stanley was asking for reassurance.

    That's my read on it as well.

    As for taking credit for the plan... I wonder if it will stick in Stanley's head that the upcoming debacle (if things play out the way I'm guessing they will) wasn't Parson's fault, and might have been avoided if he'd been left in the Chief Warlord position?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:44 am 
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    Godsire wrote:
    Here's what I think will happen:

    - Wanda will croak
    - Jack will be turned after his veil is blown
    - Tower will go down, Jetstone is defeated, which takes away a huge enemy from the RCCII
    - Ossomer retreats with the pliers toward Ansom
    - Slately will be decrypted and become Stanley's little toy/pet
    - Wanda has to rebuild her army, so will GK
    - Battle will be shifted towards fighting Transilvyto and FAQ, but Parson will also learn more about Charlie and maybe reveal some secrets about him

    - The unkown caster will either be Vanna or Charlie himself/herself
    - Stanley will send Parson along with Ansom in future battles, the two will gain mutual respect towards eachother
    - Don keeps bringing down Transilvyto, which causes Vinny to ally up with Don's enemies and betray his empire
    - Bunny will die in these events, causing Vinny to go mad and ruin his new empire even more so than Don ever did

    ETC ETC


    Wow. I feel stupider just reading this. There's no way Jack will turn, that would be stupid. Wanda may well croak, but then how can she rebuild her army 5 steps later? Charlie isn't even a caster so far as we know, and never leaves Charlescomm. Bunny croaking will not effect Vinny, you're thinking of Caesar.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:48 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    P.S. Forming a new side appears to be limited to royalty.

    Hmmm... if that's so (and Erflings know that it's so), then exterminating royalty might be a natural complement to a plan to conquer the whole world (and make the conquest stick indefinitely)....

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 14
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:57 am 
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    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    And I'm also suspicious. Suspicious Wanda has some other reason for wanting to lead. From all appearances it looks like she is going for the throat, but I think there is some irony at work though. Wanda telling Ansom his feelings might interfere? Of course we haven't seen Ansom affected at all by the fact Jillian is there (and from the summer updates we know his feelings towards her were affected by decryption).


    Wanda's jealous of Jillian's feelings for Ansom, and so is leaving him behind while she goes to confront her

    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    And Wanda telling it like it is? The decrypted don't truly belong to GK any more then their original side, they belong to her... which I think it the main problem with the idea decryption is a preferable state of being then the alternative. ;)


    Nothing new, everybody has suspected that for a long time. Good to have it in the open now.

    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    gameboy1234 wrote:
    Yes, Wanda seems to have something up her sleeve. Why else would she be giving directions to Ossomer now, when she could just issue them in battle. Also, Wanda is sure handling a lot of tactical details that I would have expected Parson to handle.


    Well, it is sometimes good to have your commander know what needs to happen before you get to the point it needs to happen at.

    And true, Wanda seems to be considering herself something of a warlord these days. Maybe she has grown cocky (more so then usual) since her plan of capturing Oss worked so well. Even down to deciding on abandoning units in the event of something going wrong.


    Note how Wanda wants to be called Commander now. It's interesting, and could have a lot of interpretations.

    Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
    PlotArmour wrote:
    Oh, so sizemore surviving had nothing to do with the fact he was Heir... merely that he was near the heir... not the argument you were making, and again, pure speculation.


    I thought the mechanics on those sorts of things were kind of clear. Heirs, at least, will survive the death of their side and go barbarian. Any troops under their command at the time (or at the very least in their personal stack) don't disband but remain serving them. This we learnt from Jillian.

    Plus there is the slight mystery of what happens when a capital is lost with the heir in the field but the side has other cities. At the moment the consensus seems to be the heir goes barbarian until a capital site is retaken (the lost one, or a capital is established in an alternative city available).


    The way I saw it was like this:
    Capital falls, all units become barbarians.
    Ruler croaks without an heir, all units disband.
    Ruler croaks with an heir, heir becomes ruler who controls all units.

    So, when Faq (the capital) fell to Stanley Jillian became a barbarian, as seen in rule number 1.
    When the Gobwins/Hobgobwins broke alliance, they captured GK (capital) and all GK (side) units became barbarians, as in rule 1. Saline croaked, but Stanley was heir so no units disbanded, as in rule 3.

    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    Forming a new side appears to be limited to royalty.


    Those are the only examples we've seen, but that's never been outright told to us. Actually, Stanley isn't royalty, but if my rules above are correct, then when he recaptured GK he was a barbarian and thus was making a new side.

    As for Wanda's loyalty, she is certainly a GK unit, but I don't think she's loyal to Stanley. I could easily see her turn and make her own side using Unaroyal's capital or maybe Spacerock if it's captured.

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