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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:53 am 
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Gez wrote:
It might even be possible that Stanley knows about this, or part of this, and this is the reason why he hates Charlie. Stanley seems too simple to be a deceptive schemer, so I can't imagine him plotting against Saline. He probably liked his King since Saline obviously treated him well. Stanley's refusal to have an emblem on his own (until GK was rebuilt and he found out he liked the decoration Maggie and Sizemore installed after all) could be sentimentalism about Saline's loss.


Stanley refused a crest because he considered them "royalist". Apparently he developed (or adapted) his idea about the new titanic mandate when he still was heir and chief warlord. How could he like Saline IV, a royal, and despise royals at the same time? Not that it was impossible.

Vurp had more than one feeling about Lord Stanley.

This is the second time we are teased with how other units feels about Stanley, but didn't got any answers.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:53 am 
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    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    Gez wrote:
    This is the second time we are teased with how other units feels about Stanley, but didn't got any answers.


    Yes, it is this tease that left me clinging for more of those delicious text updates.

    On another note; is this Parson breaking Erfworld (step by step)? Creating new stats, where there first was only obedience, loyalty and duty, some new Natural Thinkamancies like trust have appeared.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:58 am 
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    I doubt it. Most likely trust is a component of loyalty. Though I can see the appeal of Parson deconstructing Erfworld.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:09 am 
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    Erfworld is more than a game, people. It's an actual, breathing, living world (in context of the story) that just happens to have game-like mechanics replacing a little biology, physics, and laws of nature.

    This does not mean that Trust is some new stat Parson's introducing. It just means that Erfers are more than the sum of their stats.

    Next you'll be on about how Talking and Eating are specials most Erfworld units have.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:19 am 
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    Lawd wrote:
    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    This is the second time we are teased with how other units feels about Stanley, but didn't got any answers.


    Yes, it is this tease that left me clinging for more of those delicious text updates.


    This is the evil thing about any update, both text and comic; they make you want more, but you have to wait. And the waiting is the hardest part, every day you ain't see one more art.

    I believe the second book isn't centred on Parson like the first one, but on Stanley. I guess it's time for him to show some character growth or fail epic. I can't wait to see the mystery of Saline IV's fall lifted.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:26 am 
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    Zeku wrote:
    It's Wanda again ... Wanda might be the predictamancer of the prophecy. Wanda might be the creator of the summoning spell. ... And, Wanda is the Final Boss.

    I think you were looking for this thread.

    Wanda trusts Parson completely, perhaps even knowing that he doesn't trust her. She asks him for advice on every single tactical situation she encounters and then she follows it. Religiously. It's maddening.

    I think the two universal truths we're starting to see here is 1) Nobody likes Stanley and 2) Everybody Loves Raymond. I mean everybody likes Parson. Except maybe Ansom and Charlie, and only because he beat them.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:46 am 
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    DivineDragoonKain wrote:
    Erfworld is more than a game, people. It's an actual, breathing, living world (in context of the story) that just happens to have game-like mechanics replacing a little biology, physics, and laws of nature.
    This does not mean that Trust is some new stat Parson's introducing. It just means that Erfers are more than the sum of their stats.

    I agree. I think it is more likely that 'natural thinkamancy' is a result of Erfworlders' view of their universe, rather than a real 'mechanic'.
    Since there are some stats that Erfworlders can see, and those stats definitely control events, they extrapolate that there must be stats that they don't see as well.

    And from a certain perspective, they're right: there are stats they don't see, like the number of electrons in an atom, or the configuration of atoms in a molecule.
    Anything that is measurable can have a number associated with it.
    The interesting question is whether any given stat that an Erfworld refers to is just a description, or an actual limiting or enabling force.

    Take levels, for example: is a level an indication that the unit's fighting skill has increased, or does the act of gaining a level actually increase their fighting skills?
    In other words, how does leveling up behave? Do Erfworlder's muscles and reflexes continue to be conditioned until they achieve a certain threshold, and then the world acknowledges this by increasing their stat?
    Or does the world actively control them to some degree, giving them knowledge of a certain set of fighting moves, for example, and giving them access to new and improved versions of these moves with each level?

    Does the world simply shut down their body automatically when they have taken the designated number of 'hits'?
    Or does the damage that they've taken get translated into 'hits' so that others can easily determine how badly they are wounded?

    Does changing the person change the stat, or does changing the stat change the person? :D

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:12 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Does changing the person change the stat, or does changing the stat change the person? :D


    I like this point of view.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:40 am 
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    I don't think we really know that the gobwins croaked Saline IV; the only accounts we have are from Sizemore (probably reliable, but not an eyewitness; carefully notes that the story is not that coherent) and Vurp (certainly unreliable; all we know is he lied.)

    Vurp is the only remaining possible eyewitness on Gobwin Knob's side, since Stanley and Sizemore were both away at the time and the events were (just) pre-Wanda.

    I'm wondering why Vurp would lie -- concealing a hobgobwin conspiracy? orders? (if so, from who? he's the chief now, he ought to have some discretion about a former chief's orders... Stanley? Seems unlikely, really; Stanley doesn't *like* being overlord) spell?

    I find myself betting on "spell".

    Don't think it was Wanda; Wanda was completely focused on getting an arkentool. She knew who and what Stanley was when making her plans; there's no evidence that she was surprised he was the heir. It might have been Charlie, after the Arkenhammer, effectively working at cross-purposes to Wanda.

    But I don't think that's a generally sufficient explanation; Saline was Saline IV; that, plus single-strongest-fortress-in-the-known-world, and 11 cities (there's no evidence Stanley expanded their number when he took power; he seems to have inherited 11 cities and then started losing them), implies a rather old side. It must have had enemies. I suspect that those enemies are again active now with respect to the disappearance of the gobwins, and "Charlie is involved" only in as much as he's been quietly encouraging the traditional enemy.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:11 am 
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    Good update, info packed in about the world, some more foreshadowing (Vurp ... you're the next Bogroll now; sorry; wear the mantle with pride), a nice touch in the different style. There's even info about how autonomous various Erfworlders are (nat. ally Chiefs), which is nice even though I'm not counting all that info as favourable to my side in a certain debate. Any information, either way, is needed to get the discussion moving.

    Coriat wrote:
    Stanley wasn't in on it. It was Wanda.

    I may be just overindulging in my desire to ascribe bad things to her though, now that she's well over my personal moral event horizon. :mrgreen:


    Wanda's been over the moral event horizon since the Faq thing.

    It's early to say Wanda croaked Saline ... the truth is possibly murkier. Why wouldn't Vurp, or whoever ordered Vurp, not want Parson to know?

    Also, to feed speculation fires, Parson knows/suspects that it was Stanley (right?) who killed Saline, and Parson and Stanley disrespect each other, and each knows what the other feels anyway. Stanley knows Parson won't go away (he's been treated like dirt but he's unsummonable; he's still in GK despite the abuse).

    So if it was just Stanley, he probably wouldn't feel the need to lie to Parson. But who would?

    PS: no, not everybody hates Stanley. I don't. There's something charming (and tragic) about limitless ambition finding itself way out of its league.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:00 pm 
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    You know, I was a little disappointed when the comic/text pattern of updates were announced, but I'm really enjoying the dynamic.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:11 pm 
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    Graydon wrote:
    I don't think we really know that the gobwins croaked Saline IV; the only accounts we have are from Sizemore (probably reliable, but not an eyewitness; carefully notes that the story is not that coherent) and Vurp (certainly unreliable; all we know is he lied.)

    Vurp is the only remaining possible eyewitness on Gobwin Knob's side, since Stanley and Sizemore were both away at the time and the events were (just) pre-Wanda.

    I'm wondering why Vurp would lie -- concealing a hobgobwin conspiracy? orders? (if so, from who? he's the chief now, he ought to have some discretion about a former chief's orders... Stanley? Seems unlikely, really; Stanley doesn't *like* being overlord) spell?

    I find myself betting on "spell".

    Don't think it was Wanda; Wanda was completely focused on getting an arkentool. She knew who and what Stanley was when making her plans; there's no evidence that she was surprised he was the heir. It might have been Charlie, after the Arkenhammer, effectively working at cross-purposes to Wanda.

    But I don't think that's a generally sufficient explanation; Saline was Saline IV; that, plus single-strongest-fortress-in-the-known-world, and 11 cities (there's no evidence Stanley expanded their number when he took power; he seems to have inherited 11 cities and then started losing them), implies a rather old side. It must have had enemies. I suspect that those enemies are again active now with respect to the disappearance of the gobwins, and "Charlie is involved" only in as much as he's been quietly encouraging the traditional enemy.


    I salute you, lord of the conspiracy theorists! How about another reason why Vurp lied: Guilt, like it says in the update. And don't count Wanda out of the equation. We know very little about Saline. It's possible that he might have been a king who won't attack for the sake of war, so Wanda needed to get rid of him if she wanted Stanley to come knocking of Faq's cute little doors.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:13 pm 
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    Just to add a point I haven't seen in the discussion: we already have direct evidence of Wanda casting a suggestion spell on a hobgobwin:

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F038.jpg

    Now, in light of the current update, lets look at what Sizemore said:

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg

    Quote:
    "Stanley took me and a number of other casters out on a special mission one turn. He was Chief Warlord to Saline then. When we returned, the city had fallen to a sneak attack from below. Saline was put to the sword. The Gobwins... broke their alliance and hit the city. Very odd."


    He says "a number of other casters," not "all of the casters." So it's entirely possible that Wanda was in Gobwin Knob to incite their rebellion. Of course, it's also entirely possible that Charlie caused the Gobwins to turn against Saline, which we know to be possible in light of the Jillian/Giants summer update. It's not that far fetched to imagine Wanda hiring Charlie to do the deed.

    (On a side note, I just noticed that the platform where Saline is getting ganked looks exactly like the platform where Bogroll is standing in http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F131.jpg -- obviously the tower balcony.)

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:16 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:

    Does the world simply shut down their body automatically when they have taken the designated number of 'hits'?
    Or does the damage that they've taken get translated into 'hits' so that others can easily determine how badly they are wounded?


    It's probably all just Signamancy. :)

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:28 pm 
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    Angband wrote:
    Quote:
    "Stanley took me and a number of other casters out on a special mission one turn. He was Chief Warlord to Saline then. When we returned, the city had fallen to a sneak attack from below. Saline was put to the sword. The Gobwins... broke their alliance and hit the city. Very odd."


    He says "a number of other casters," not "all of the casters." So it's entirely possible that Wanda was in Gobwin Knob to incite their rebellion. Of course, it's also entirely possible that Charlie caused the Gobwins to turn against Saline, which we know to be possible in light of the Jillian/Giants summer update. It's not that far fetched to imagine Wanda hiring Charlie to do the deed.


    Wanda wasn't a GK unit yet. She can't have been in the city.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:36 pm 
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    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    Gez wrote:
    It might even be possible that Stanley knows about this, or part of this, and this is the reason why he hates Charlie. Stanley seems too simple to be a deceptive schemer, so I can't imagine him plotting against Saline. He probably liked his King since Saline obviously treated him well. Stanley's refusal to have an emblem on his own (until GK was rebuilt and he found out he liked the decoration Maggie and Sizemore installed after all) could be sentimentalism about Saline's loss.


    Stanley refused a crest because he considered them "royalist". Apparently he developed (or adapted) his idea about the new titanic mandate when he still was heir and chief warlord. How could he like Saline IV, a royal, and despise royals at the same time?

    Very easily.

    Saline, a royal, liked Stanley: he respected him and appreciated him, so much that he promoted him, first to warlord, then to chief warlord, then to heir designate. Stanley was a good unit to have deserved these honors.

    And then Saline is betrayed and killed. All all the other royals are saying that Stanley is bad and should be croaked! They're rejecting the will of their own fellow Royal, the late King Saline! They are the betrayers, they are the ones that are wrong, because Stanley is a good unit, and it's a Royal, King Saline, who said so! So it's true! Stanley even has attuned an Arkentool, so even the Titans say so! Those stupid Royals are disrespecting Saline and the Titans!

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:40 pm 
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    Hmm, a throwback to the Goblin rebellion! Looks like its definetly going to be an issue.
    I wonder if Vurp will be further introduced in the comic proper after the current battle.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:46 pm 
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    DivineDragoonKain wrote:
    Next you'll be on about how Talking and Eating are specials most Erfworld units have.
    Bad example, considering only some units in a tribe speak language. In fact since dragons, spidews, unipegataurs, etc., don't talk I'd say talking is a special most Erfworld units don't have.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:59 pm 
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    At the moment, there are at least 4 plausible candidates for who was responsible for the Gobwin's croaking Saline. The Gobwins themselves, Wanda, Stanley, and Charlie.

    If the Gobwins had hated or despised Saline, the most plausible answer would be that they choose to croak him themselves. This update gives us our first glimpse into the Gobwin's motivations, and suggests, but doesn't prove, that they didn't hate or despise Saline. So I think this update reduces the chances that the Gobwins acted alone, but doesn't entirely eliminate it.

    Wanda has certain mind control abilities which she could have theoretically used to get the Gobwins to revolt. If the Gobwins had already disliked Saline, a suggestion spell might have been sufficient to cause the revolt. Again, there is no hint in this update that they did dislike Saline. But in addition to suggestion spells, Wanda has a spell that causes Hobgobwins to forget things. The mere fact that Vurp seems to remember what happened to Saline is an argument against Wanda being involved in this. If Wanda had been involved, Vurp would have been more likely to tell Parson he didn't really understand why they did it.

    The fact that Vurp is thinking about Stanley in this update as opposed to Wanda, Charlie or the leadership of his tribe, suggests, but doesn't prove, that Vurp thinks Stanley was responsible for the Gobwin revolt. There is at least one other example of a Heir plotting to croak his ruler, Don King's son. But it's possible that Vurp is in the same position as Ansom on this issue. Vurp might not really know what happened to Saline, and believe, reluctantly, that it must have been Stanley, because, as far as Vurp knows, no other explanation makes sense.

    And if that's the case, then Charlie was probably responsible.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:13 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    Wanda wasn't a GK unit yet. She can't have been in the city.


    Looking back at the strips, I think it's ambiguous if Faq was sacked before or after Stanley became an Overlord.

    The order of events we know about are:

    1. Stanley promoted to warlord
    2. As warlord, he found the Arkenhammer
    3. Won a lot of battles with the Arkenhammer
    4. Promoted to Heir Designate
    5. Becomes Overlord

    All we know for sure is that Faq was sacked after #2.

    But, look at Strip 147. The sacking of Faq appears to happen relatively soon after Stanley found the Arkenhammer (note that Stanley is shown attuning, and is still trying out different battle cries as he flies towards the capital.) If Stanley won a lot of battles before being made Heir Designate, it is likely that some of those battles included sacking Faq. Furthermore, Wanda referred to him as a Warlord, and not an Overlord, when she conspired for him to attack Faq.

    Overall, I think it is MUCH more likely that Wanda and Jack had already been captured by Gobwin Knob before Stanley became overlord.

    (Edited to fix broke link)

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