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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:00 pm 
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theseus2x wrote:
Can we hold off on arguing about wands, and just go on the assumption that the Magic Kingdom would be very, very, VERY hard to attack?


I was arguing not what the wands could do (presumably fire some sort of attack) but that they may indicate that the eight people are special in some manner, rather than just random casters, since most casters don't seem to have wands. Which may indicate that they have a guard, or military, which supplies them with wands, which would make MK even harder to take.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:27 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    2) Because Jillian wants to free Jack from the loyalty spells binding him to Stanley (remember, she vehemently believes that he can't possibly be working for Stanley the Worm without a heavy dose of them). Personal reasons, wanting FAQ's casters back.


    Total aside here: I don't recall her saying that. She thought that about Wanda but was proven totally wrong. By the time she met Jack, I'd imagine that she'd have a hard time vehemently believing that after Wanda's betrayal of her expectations.

    IIRC, during Book 1, she just calls for his name but doesn't predict or try to explain his actions, though she's clearly shocked by them. During the Summer Updates she "still wasn't sure what had really happened" in the battle where they met.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:30 pm 
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    GobwinPie wrote:

    Total aside here: I don't recall her saying that. She thought that about Wanda but was proven totally wrong. By the time she met Jack, I'd imagine that she'd have a hard time vehemently believing that after Wanda's betrayal of her expectations.

    IIRC, during Book 1, she just calls for his name but doesn't predict or try to explain his actions, though she's clearly shocked by them. During the Summer Updates she "still wasn't sure what had really happened" in the battle where they met.


    Fair point. I had remembered that she thought that Wanda MUST have had loyalty spells on her, and assumed the same idea would apply to Jack; I for some reason completely missed that she may have changed that opinion after learning about Wanda. You're right, we don't know what she thinks abuot Jack anymore.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:53 pm 
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    decius wrote:
    I'm in the "Jack wants Treminis to think that he's dead, so that Treminis will make decisions based on inaccurate information." boat.
    [...]
    Seriously, Jack is a foolamancer. Can you trust anything you see about him?


    I'm in the camp that Jack got badly wounded in the battle since it's the only logical reason I can see for him to drop the veil on all the other units, but he is probably just incapacitated and not dead, much like Wanda was after Sizemore rescued her from Ansom.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:11 pm 
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    I think King Slately (King of Jetstone) is not in the capital. I think he's in a different city with a stock-pile of Gems. This is Jetstone's contingency plan; in case Gobwin Knob captures the capital its King and wealth is elsewhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:42 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Dr Quest DFA wrote:
    A thought that occurred to me reading one of the other comments was that maybe they will need to use the dwagon express to send Jack back and it gets waylaid by Jillian (camping out along one of the expected paths). That would make for good tension and plot development as well as play into the title of this book (Love is a Battlefield).


    Wow, nice. Quite possible. I can't believe this hasn't suggested earlier.


    The Jillian waylaying the dragon express theory has been around for many updates now.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:46 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    Dr Quest DFA wrote:
    A thought that occurred to me reading one of the other comments was that maybe they will need to use the dwagon express to send Jack back and it gets waylaid by Jillian (camping out along one of the expected paths). That would make for good tension and plot development as well as play into the title of this book (Love is a Battlefield).


    Wow, nice. Quite possible. I can't believe this hasn't suggested earlier.


    The Jillian waylaying the dragon express theory has been around for many updates now.


    Yes, but I hadn't heard it mentioned in the context of "Jack will be waylaid because he's being sent home for heals." I'd certainly heard it before, in the context of "Jillian is going after the express, to catch Stanley or Ansom or Wanda" - but I don't *think* it had been mentioned post-wounding. Or did I miss it?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:14 pm 
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    I'm sorry but everytime I see this theory I remember units heal completely when their next turns come by.
    Would they really need to send Jack away like that?
    It's sure that if Jetstone does a counter-attack on the GK troops at the bridge, he might get croaked for good, but will that happen (I mean, they are under siege would they start running after the attackers?) / can't they just shove him to the back of the army so he's not vulnerable at the frontlines and wait for him to heal?
    Also, do we know if a wounded unit's condition can get worse/ receive damage over time?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:40 pm 
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    CelebrenIthil wrote:
    I'm sorry but everytime I see this theory I remember units heal completely when their next turns come by.
    Would they really need to send Jack away like that?
    It's sure that if Jetstone does a counter-attack on the GK troops at the bridge, he might get croaked for good, but will that happen (I mean, they are under siege would they start running after the attackers?) / can't they just shove him to the back of the army so he's not vulnerable at the frontlines and wait for him to heal?
    Also, do we know if a wounded unit's condition can get worse/ receive damage over time?


    Well, right now it's Gobwin Knob's turn. So Jetstone can't do anything, yet.

    However, Jack won't automatically heal until the start of GK's next turn. So if he's kept around the front lines, he's both useless and incapacitated AND in danger. I could see the rationale in saying "lets get him away from the front before Jetstone's turn starts." "Away from the front lines" would probably mean "safely in GK or a nearby GK city."

    We know that when Wanda was seriously injured, Sizemore said something like "she'll croak if she doesn't get healed soon." Soon meaning within the turn, I guess? So something like that has precedent.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:21 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Well, right now it's Gobwin Knob's turn. So Jetstone can't do anything, yet.

    However, Jack won't automatically heal until the start of GK's next turn. So if he's kept around the front lines, he's both useless and incapacitated AND in danger. I could see the rationale in saying "lets get him away from the front before Jetstone's turn starts." "Away from the front lines" would probably mean "safely in GK or a nearby GK city."

    We know that when Wanda was seriously injured, Sizemore said something like "she'll croak if she doesn't get healed soon." Soon meaning within the turn, I guess? So something like that has precedent.


    Still, I don't think they could afford to protect him a lot while sending him away, and if he can't make it to a GK city in a single shot, he risks being attacked. (nor necessarily by Jillian, Jetstone fliers might be able to pursue) But yeah, story plotlines. :)

    And yeah you are right, Wanda was getting worse. Good. Makes room for more danger/drama/realism than having to kill someone within the turn, or see them come back to full health everytime and make all the toiling in vain.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:28 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    However, whatever attribute can describe Ansom now, post-decryption, also applies to Ansom, pre-decryption, and vice-versa: Ansom lost nothing in terms of character by being brought back. Precisely because Spot and I DON'T fall into the trap of war, it looks to us that the Decrypted are not sub-Erfworlders.


    True, he still largely has the bearing, approach and dedication to whatever it is he happens to be following - royal mandate or toolism. Although his royal mandate bit was something he freely chose to follow (and as we've seen not all royals are as uptight about it). I guess we'll have to wait and see how large a role the decryption process plays affecting such things (toolism freely supported vs. mind slave to the wielder's will).

    And of course he did, prior to decryption, have relationships (Vinnie, Jillian, his family probably) that decryption might have scuppered (to early to tell how decryption will affect the freedom to form bonds and so forth, beyond devotion to Wanda). I would be tempted from what we have seen so far to say pod person applies a little more now, simply because Ansom seems far more subservient as Chief Warlord now then when he was Chief Warlord while alive (maybe if King Slately had been with him all the time like Wanda is now it wouldn't seem so different).

    But generally I agree, as yet I don't think the decrypted are inherently bad or inferior, different sure, but as you said, not sub-erfworlder.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:16 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Spot most likely uses "pod-person" Ansom to refer to his strong convictions in the superiority of the Royal mandate. He's not the only one on the forums thinking that Ansom was a bit stuck up, which resulted in lots of (imo undeserved) Ansom-bashing.

    However, whatever attribute can describe Ansom now, post-decryption, also applies to Ansom, pre-decryption, and vice-versa: Ansom lost nothing in terms of character by being brought back. Precisely because Spot and I DON'T fall into the trap of war, it looks to us that the Decrypted are not sub-Erfworlders.


    Alle true, I never said Decrypted are sub-Erfworlders, I do think that creating them is an evil act, as free will is one of the basic human/being rights. The higher the unit the higher the potential for free will and intelligence it seems. Casters and Warlords are almost as free as real world humans, mind controlling them is evil, that they retain some free thoughts and emotions is at best only a mitigating factor.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:30 pm 
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    Django wrote:
    Alle true, I never said Decrypted are sub-Erfworlders, I do think that creating them is an evil act, as free will is one of the basic human/being rights. The higher the unit the higher the potential for free will and intelligence it seems. Casters and Warlords are almost as free as real world humans, mind controlling them is evil, that they retain some free thoughts and emotions is at best only a mitigating factor.


    The Casters again are the question- it certainly looks like they are the most autonomous people in Erfworld. Even Warlords are subjects to their higher-ups. And unlike Decrypted, not necessarily willing subjects.

    But here there is a problem- it appears that there is no moral argument against killing all your pikers and decrypt them. They're not worse off, and will never go hungry again. Warlords may be a grey area, but again, they were servants of someone else anyway.

    I don't know enough to make a case that decrypting casters is not evil, so your suggestion may be right. Apparently, casters, ruling Royals/Barbarian Chiefs and Charlie are the only moral agents in Erfworld and they really would lose something by decryption. I will have to wait and see what else we find out about the Decrypted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:24 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    However, Jack won't automatically heal until the start of GK's next turn. So if he's kept around the front lines, he's both useless and incapacitated AND in danger. I could see the rationale in saying "lets get him away from the front before Jetstone's turn starts." "Away from the front lines" would probably mean "safely in GK or a nearby GK city."


    I'd really be surprised if Wanda didn't bring a couple of healing scrolls along with her on the expedition.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:38 pm 
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    seans23 wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    However, Jack won't automatically heal until the start of GK's next turn. So if he's kept around the front lines, he's both useless and incapacitated AND in danger. I could see the rationale in saying "lets get him away from the front before Jetstone's turn starts." "Away from the front lines" would probably mean "safely in GK or a nearby GK city."


    I'd really be surprised if Wanda didn't bring a couple of healing scrolls along with her on the expedition.


    If they have any.

    Do we really know where scrolls come from? We know that they can be gotten from the MK, but Wanda hasn't been to the MK since TBfGK. For some reason, I have this notion in my head that casters can use juice to make scrolls of spells they could cast, but neither Wanda nor Sizemore nor Maggie would be able to naturally cast healing spells. (Well, maybe they can, casters can cast outside their specialty...) I'm not sure whether that's textually supported or whether I'm just making that up.

    Depending on how scrolls are made and what the options are for obtaining them, it might mean that GK doesn't have any appropriate scrolls. (Of course, we know that before TBfGK, GK had scrolls of all sorts of spells, but we don't know whether those have been restocked.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:54 pm 
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    Dr Quest DFA wrote:
    Ansom a few pages back telling the casters to mount up.
    {Snip}
    it looks like Red/Scarlet and Wanda will be making a fighting retreat
    {More snipping}
    (though I wouldn't mind a close up of Red/Scarlet, just for vindication)


    Okay, most outlandish theory of the day: What if ... brace yourselves ... you ready for this? ... nearly there ... here we go:

    What if Scarlet was (and is) a caster?

    Now, hear me out. In all the strips we've seen Scarlet in, do we ever hear her called a Warlord? Do we ever see her fighting/commanding? (not saying a caster cant fight/command, since we've witnessed both first hand, but she tends to hang back throughout the entire battle). She wasn't part of the leadership stack that Sizemore targeted. She realized the importance of the Arkenpliers and took them, lest they fall into enemy hands. She remains calm throughout the entire volcano-explosion; calmer than any other character we see. Also, as many Starwars fans will agree, Jek Tono Porkins was strong in the Force.

    Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, her name isn't "Unaroyal Warlord", or "sHe-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", it isn't "Red" (Edit: Although "Red" is a much better alternative than the two previously listed names!!) either: It's Scarlet.

    ...

    Scarlet, Scarlet, Scarlet, Scarlet, Scarlet, Scarlet. :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:18 pm 
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    Django wrote:
    Alle true, I never said Decrypted are sub-Erfworlders, I do think that creating them is an evil act, as free will is one of the basic human/being rights. The higher the unit the higher the potential for free will and intelligence it seems. Casters and Warlords are almost as free as real world humans, mind controlling them is evil, that they retain some free thoughts and emotions is at best only a mitigating factor.


    But in a sense, Decryption seems to give the units a similar treatment as making them "pop" again- complete with Loyalty changes to their new side (the Arkenplier's wielder). Sure, Ansom seems a bit fanatical and devoted to Wanda, but is it so different than how he was when Loyal to Jetstone? I wonder. To which point a Decrypted and a highly loyal unit are different in matters of free will?
    In any case, rebelling against orders or anything would disband them.

    I don't feel Erfworld gives anyone much freedom, and Decrypting (past the physical changes and all) seems to simply assign a new side/loyalty to the units. Sounds very unethical for our world, but Erfworld isn't the same...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:54 am 
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    Atomic wrote:
    What if Scarlet was (and is) a caster?

    Now, hear me out. In all the strips we've seen Scarlet in, do we ever hear her called a Warlord? Do we ever see her fighting/commanding? (not saying a caster cant fight/command, since we've witnessed both first hand, but she tends to hang back throughout the entire battle).


    We know Wanda was proficient with combat so it stands to reason that casters could fight. And they can lead units, even though they bring no leadership bonus.

    BUT, we also haven't seen exactly Scarlet cast anything either. At the moment, she really was most probably just the Chief Warlord of Unaroyal for TBfGK, and now one of the Warlords of the Decrypted Horde.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:41 pm 
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    Would one try to level a caster via combat? Is that how it works for them? Or is there just a universal leveling ladder?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 9
     Post Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:19 pm 
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    Django wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Spot most likely uses "pod-person" Ansom to refer to his strong convictions in the superiority of the Royal mandate. He's not the only one on the forums thinking that Ansom was a bit stuck up, which resulted in lots of (imo undeserved) Ansom-bashing.

    However, whatever attribute can describe Ansom now, post-decryption, also applies to Ansom, pre-decryption, and vice-versa: Ansom lost nothing in terms of character by being brought back. Precisely because Spot and I DON'T fall into the trap of war, it looks to us that the Decrypted are not sub-Erfworlders.


    Alle true, I never said Decrypted are sub-Erfworlders, I do think that creating them is an evil act, as free will is one of the basic human/being rights. The higher the unit the higher the potential for free will and intelligence it seems. Casters and Warlords are almost as free as real world humans, mind controlling them is evil, that they retain some free thoughts and emotions is at best only a mitigating factor.
    That kinda brings up the whole question of free will in Erfworld, like the Wrigley example, and Parson's musings.

    I'm not convinced anybody BUT Royalty, Casters and Barbarians have free will in Erfworld.

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