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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:02 pm 
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New One is up.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:08 pm 
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    Poor Sizemore. :( I'm glad he's got at least one person to confide in. I can't see him ending well or happily though.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:11 pm 
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    Huh, somebody needs to step up propaganda efforts.

    "Bring croakamancy to the Life axis"- lamest reason for rejection ever, but in tune with the way things go. Old orders don't age gracefully.

    Not to say that the newer ones are better either. There seems to be something about the decrypted that is morally iffy, but the more I think about it, it's only iffy for us Earthers. On Erfworld, the higher-ups have complete loyalty of underlings, as Maggie told Parson. So then, what's the big deal, in Erf terms, with the Decrypted?

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:27 pm 
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    So the theory about Magic kingdom casters being refugees from fallen sides turned barbarian is true. Interesting.
    That means they have to work at *something, or they wouldn't last without paying they're upkeep, right?

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:35 pm 
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    It's great to see the text updates back even with Xin's excellent art. I'm not surprised that twice-a-week updates were too much. Goblins only updates once a week. Order of the Stick doesn't even do that. No one expects Rob and Xin to work themselves senseless, we just want to know when to expect the next one.

    I still think Rob should write a book.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:36 pm 
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    We do not know if the Magic Kingdom runs according to the same rules as the rest of Erf. The fact that the casters are alive without being or having an overlord or being in a city is in itself a condition that appears to contradict the rules of Erfworld.

    Thus we do not know if they need to pay upkeep. I am guessing that they do not.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:52 pm 
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    Fantastic update, as always! I love seeing the panel sketched out; it's amazing to see all the details that go into each comic, even before the coloring. Epic.

    I'm not trying to start any crazy theories (goodness knows we've got enough around here!! Haha) but does the last line strike anyone as though Sizemore is walking into some sort of trap?

    "He straightened his new jacket, and half ran toward her for a world-righting hug."

    Something about that. I just feel like its a trap, or a trick, or that something bad will happen in the near future...

    *foreboding, and obligatory, noises*
    Duh duh duuuuuh.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:01 pm 
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    I find the idea that Stagemancers (the only school of magic with all three elements represented) are upset at the idea that a Croakamancer is using the Life axis interesting. If you look at the magic table, Naughtymancy is missing a representation of the Life axis while having the other two.

    It's kind of like they feel she is invading their elemental territory, breaking the rules of magic.

    Also, whee. My theory on the background of the Magic Kingdom has gained a little more credence.

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    Last edited by Kaed on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:02 pm 
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    The fact that it's the Stage-a-mancers who strongly disliked the suggestion that Wanda was extending Croakamancy into the Life Axis is interesting, because according to the existing understanding of the nature of Magic, Naughtymancy (including Croakamancy) was aligned to the Axis of Matter and Motion, while Stage-a-mancy was aligned to Matter, Motion, and Life. So if Wanda "changes" the rules of magic so that Naughtymancy is aligned with all three of the axis, does it simply mean that Magic theorists need to rethink their theoretical framework, or does it literally change the laws of Magic by pushing Stage-a-mancy out of alignment with the Life Axis? Are the Stage-a-mancers concerned because they fear that they could lose the ability to perform the types of Magic that utilize the Life Axis?

    And if hostility towards Gobwin Knob continues to grow in the Magic Kingdom, how long before we start to see more casters joining the Royal side in order to oppose Gobwin Knob?

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:16 pm 
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    Why don't we have a caricature of Xin instead of Jamie on the front page, yet?

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:18 pm 
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    Glenn wrote:
    And if hostility towards Gobwin Knob continues to grow in the Magic Kingdom, how long before we start to see more casters joining the Royal side in order to oppose Gobwin Knob?


    I wonder if that particularly terrifying thought has occurred to Parson.

    Having most of the world's casters align against you...*shudder*

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:19 pm 
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    I enjoyed this update and learning a little bit more about one of my favorite charters. I feel that the other casters are correct in their thinking, but I think that ol' Charlie has something to do with the dropping popularity of Sizemore.

    Now I understand that the barbians there could be looking for work, why has not Sizemore tried to get some to come in and offer their services in a non combat way? I get they dislike the overly strong one side but it helps with their upkeep and they could learn a bit more. Hopefully the Hippymancers understand Sizemore and that he is not Wanda.

    Hmm... is Wanda slipping into a more Life instead of Fate?? I guess we will find out.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:23 pm 
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    badninja wrote:
    I feel that the other casters are correct in their thinking


    Playing Devil's Advocate here a little, but- why? The Decrypted are pretty much just like any other Erfworlder, with the difference that they do not leave a corpse to uncroak. Ansom's Toolism is merely "something that did not help things" as this update says: bad for image, but not the core issue. What IS the core issue?

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:35 pm 
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    Sizemore finally has pants!

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:03 pm 
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    Y'know, the first thing i thought of with the mention of stagamancers, was the idea that a debate is nothing more then a big stage =p

    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    "Bring croakamancy to the Life axis"- lamest reason for rejection ever, but in tune with the way things go. Old orders don't age gracefully.

    Maybe, maybe not... we don't know enough about magic to know if this is serious concern
    As others have mentioned, croakamancy entering the life axis would allow naughtymancy to cover all 3 fields... as it stands, each major grouping of magic is divided amongst the three fields of life, motion and matter, with NONE of them having the same combinations... One might have to ask, does naughtymancy gaining the power of "life" just mean casters need to think about their system some more, or could it be that this leads to a serious flaw in the balance of magic in erfworld. Add a foreign element to an alien environment and you can throw the ecosystem into chaos

    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Not to say that the newer ones are better either. There seems to be something about the decrypted that is morally iffy, but the more I think about it, it's only iffy for us Earthers. On Erfworld, the higher-ups have complete loyalty of underlings, as Maggie told Parson. So then, what's the big deal, in Erf terms, with the Decrypted?

    Well two things as far as i can see...
    first off, loyalty of this nature has always applied to rulers and sides; Wanda is neither, she is a caster, she is an underling... the rules of loyalty and duty do not apply to her
    Second of all, the loyalty towards wanda seems to be more extreme then what we have seen with other rulers. Units have a loyalty stat, and low loyalty could lead to the unit turning or betraying their ruler; and while units are bound by duty to serve their rulers, they do not have to like them... even Ansom has shown signs of having hatred and frustration with Stanely despite serving him loyally. But the decrypted seem more extreme... Ansom has come to outright love Wanda, unaroyal's heir seemed to gush over her mistress as much as ansom, and even the unaroyal chief warlord went from wishing for the queen's safety, to angrily yelling at her along side Ansom in mere moments after decryption. Seems much more extreme then what erfworlders generally feel...

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:36 pm 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    Maybe, maybe not... we don't know enough about magic to know if this is serious concern{snip}


    This is true, and I am bringing assumptions from outside Erfworld when I call that reason for concern as bogus. Specifically, my assumption is that "bring croakamancy into the life axis" is approximately similar to "use physics to calculate a chemistry problem". Note that academics are sometimes touchy about other fields than their own ;)

    I do not suspect that the map is the territory, so to speak, that is that if Erfworlders start believing that croakamancy is also life-aligned, then I don't believe that the structure of Erfworld changes (rather, it always has been different than they assumed). But true, I don't know how Erfworld works.

    MonteCristo wrote:
    Well two things as far as i can see...
    first off, loyalty of this nature has always applied to rulers and sides; Wanda is neither, she is a caster, she is an underling... the rules of loyalty and duty do not apply to her
    Second of all, the loyalty towards wanda seems to be more extreme then what we have seen with other rulers.


    The first is the political argument, and while it is a practical one when you are the King, it is not necessarily morally compelling. What if Wanda really does deserve to rule by some metric that Erfworld- the natural laws or some other objective standard- considers fair? Competence, attunement, some grand vision, whatever. Maybe Royalty is obsolete?

    The second aspect is true but it's a matter of degree. Parson knows that he can order an archon to strip and rule-34 him; it matters little that the archon might feel queasy or eager inside. Arguably, the decrypted are better in this regard in that their internal states and behaviour are consistent. See the cow that wanted to be slaughtered and eaten in one of Douglas Adams' Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy books.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:50 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    badninja wrote:
    I feel that the other casters are correct in their thinking


    Playing Devil's Advocate here a little, but- why? The Decrypted are pretty much just like any other Erfworlder, with the difference that they do not leave a corpse to uncroak. Ansom's Toolism is merely "something that did not help things" as this update says: bad for image, but not the core issue. What IS the core issue?


    They don't know exactly what's happening to their world since the summoning of Parson and it scares the crap out of them. Their world is definitely changing.
    Also, decrypted units do not cost any upkeep.

    From an Earth perspective, imagine someone you know extremely well. They are slain by their worst enemy in battle. The next day they show up at your door and start telling you how awesome that enemy is. You also can't help noticing that they no longer need to eat, sleep, or go to the bathroom anymore. (Not a direct comparison, I know - but its the closest example I can think of for human "upkeep.")

    For all intents and purposes, this person IS your dead friend. But in a handful of jarring ways, they are utterly alien to you. And they are clearly not ghosts or figments of your imagination.

    Once you couple this with a number of other things that have happened recently, their concerns make a lot more sense.

    edit - fixed some gibberish :oops:


    Last edited by Vex97 on Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:56 pm 
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    Vex97 wrote:
    They don't know exactly what's happening to their world since the summoning of Parson and it scares the crap out of them. Their world is definitely changing.{snip}


    That actually is the best reason for explaining the casters' behaviour. Fair enough.

    To be fair to me too though, it looks like their thinking is hampered by lack of information and prejudice and is not so clearly "correct" in its results. I'd be pretty un-reasonable too if a change like Erf decryption started popping round, but since we have a broader view than Erf's casters (in some aspects, anyway) we can ask whether their fears are founded or not.

    I'm willing to play DA here and say they aren't.

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:05 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Vex97 wrote:
    They don't know exactly what's happening to their world since the summoning of Parson and it scares the crap out of them. Their world is definitely changing.{snip}


    That actually is the best reason for explaining the casters' behaviour. Fair enough.

    To be fair to me too though, it looks like their thinking is hampered by lack of information and prejudice and is not so clearly "correct" in its results. I'd be pretty un-reasonable too if a change like Erf decryption started popping round, but since we have a broader view than Erf's casters (in some aspects, anyway) we can ask whether their fears are founded or not.

    I'm willing to play DA here and say they aren't.


    I honestly don't know yet. You may be correct. But there have also been hints that decrypting is not the silver bullet Wanda thinks it is. Since being "reborn", Ansom has gone from sheer admiration of Parson to jealousy bordering on contempt. He must obey Wanda, but he clearly doesn't share her respect for Parson's ideas or tactical ability.

    That little bit of independence is the wild card I think. The Decrypted fit nicely into the myths of Created vs Creator. Actually, they give me a serious vibe of "The Terminator" being mixed with "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers."

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     Post Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:26 pm 
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    Vex97 wrote:
    That little bit of independence is the wild card I think. The Decrypted fit nicely into the myths of Created vs Creator. Actually, they give me a serious vibe of "The Terminator" being mixed with "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers."


    Heh, I remember the Nicole Kidman version. In it, this Infection from Outer Space causes every Miss World's dream to come true, and the protagonist is racing to cure humanity because a) we have a right to be boopholes to each other and more importantly b) her son, immune to the infection, would not be welcome in the new world. Considering the infection was a borderline-attractive prospect, fits in the "What the Hell Hero" category.

    But of course we have a right to be boopholes to each other; we have some semblance of free will, at least a weak sense. Our thoughts and actions are not under the complete control of some other human agency. Thing is Erfworlders do not have this kind of free will anyway, by the looks of the loyalty mechanism. Their actions are very much determined or constrained by orders from above.

    On Earth it's different. Your President could call you to war, and you could say no and call yourself a consciencious objector. You'd be thrown in jail and branded a defector, but still someone actually has to grab you and put you in a cell. They can't just order you to smack yourself around, as they could in Erfworld.

    Noteworthy that loyalty is not that stringent on Erfworld, we have seen breaks in the mechanism, but they are rare.

    And speaking of rare breaks in loyalty, the decrypted haven't been around long. Maybe they are also capable of that kind of thing, who knows. Then the Terminator reference you make will become very topical.

    EDITED: where I say loyalty for Erfworld, I should probably say loyalty/duty.

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