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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:02 pm 
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splintermute wrote:
I think it's entirely possible that Spacerock will pull some surprise out of a hat - they seem to have a magic user specifically designed for that purpose.



Haha. Awesome.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:14 pm 
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    atteSmythe wrote:
    RukhHammerwing wrote:
    edit: And who is the sad, lonely little warlord in the last panel with no dwagon to ride? That has to be a blow to his loyalty score...

    Wrigley. They took his spear and didn't even give him a dragon. Meanies!


    ...and if you look, he still does not have his spear. What is GK doing? :mrgreen:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:27 pm 
    Battle Crest Pins Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter E is for Erfworld Supporter IRC Quote of the Moment Here for the 10th Anniversary
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    RukhHammerwing wrote:
    atteSmythe wrote:
    RukhHammerwing wrote:
    edit: And who is the sad, lonely little warlord in the last panel with no dwagon to ride? That has to be a blow to his loyalty score...

    Wrigley. They took his spear and didn't even give him a dragon. Meanies!


    ...and if you look, he still does not have his spear. What is GK doing? :mrgreen:


    Why would they take low level infantry to attack the capital? Wrigley is probably still in Warchalking doing exactly what Queen Bea had him doing, except now he's doing it for Stanley the Tool and his Mistress Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:29 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Unfortunately, any coerced information is not nearly as valid as physical verification. Even if the decwypted person freely divulges everything he knows, it doesn't allow for any intel that is not known. Only physically scouting the space will suffice. So no matter if she apprehends Ossomer himself, she is still leaving herself vulnerable to surprise.

    You're always vulnerable to surprise. Scouting an area has flaws of it's own; things that are out of sight and ordered not to engage (big problem with a city), things that are veiled, who knows what else.

    Decrypting a unit is making a forceful grab at information about what Jetstone's got going on. Scouting hexes is doing the same. Both have advantages, both have flaws; it's the difference between listening at a door or peeking through the keyhole. The point is that you're doing what you can (and in that light, it might be wise to scout as well as decrypt), not that it is structurally foolish to act without having attained a specific arbitrary level of intelligence..

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:34 pm 
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    I'm not sure I like the way Stanley's expressions are drawn. Specifically, his mouth. I don't know why, it just doesn't seem to convey emotion very well.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:46 pm 
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    Raza wrote:
    Decrypting a unit is making a forceful grab at information about what Jetstone's got going on. Scouting hexes is doing the same. Both have advantages, both have flaws; it's the difference between listening at a door or peeking through the keyhole. The point is that you're doing what you can (and in that light, it might be wise to scout as well as decrypt), not that it is structurally foolish to act without having attained a specific arbitrary level of intelligence..


    On the contrary, the effects of Decryption on units is now fully realized by all known forces. And one of the most basic ways to combat the intelligence exposure is to encapsulate information--and even deliberately misinform one's own troops. Since we have every indication that the coalition forces are led by intelligent individuals, there is no reason to assume they have not accounted for this in all of their planning. It is poor strategy to rely on the enemies inexperience or stupidity. Take advantage of any opportunities discovered, but don't create plans that require the enemy to be stupid to succeed.

    While scouts can still be fooled, archons can pierce veils, so yes, using a specific method of intelligence gathering is hardly arbitrary. You don't just want some arbitrary intelligence, you want the BEST intelligence that you can get, even at the expense of lost units. The more critical the mission, the more critical ALL expedient means for gathering intelligence are explored.

    The point is, if something is veiled or otherwise hidden, there is still at least a chance of discovering it, and there are different actions that can be done to improve those chances. But if someone doesn't know something, then no matter what the means used for the interrogation, there is no chance of getting that information from them. Interrogation is a high risk method that should be compensated with another method that minimizes the risk.

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    Last edited by Infidel on Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:51 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    Raza wrote:
    Decrypting a unit is making a forceful grab at information about what Jetstone's got going on. Scouting hexes is doing the same. Both have advantages, both have flaws; it's the difference between listening at a door or peeking through the keyhole. The point is that you're doing what you can (and in that light, it might be wise to scout as well as decrypt), not that it is structurally foolish to act without having attained a specific arbitrary level of intelligence..


    On the contrary, the effects of Decryption on units is now fully realized by all known forces. And one of the most basic ways to combat the intelligence exposure is to encapsulate information--and even deliberately misinform one's own troops. Since we have every indication that the coalition forces are led by intelligent individuals, there is no reason to assume they have not accounted for this in all of their planning.

    While scouts can still be fooled, archons can pierce veils, so yes, using a specific method of intelligence gathering is hardly arbitrary. You don't just want some arbitrary intelligence, you want the BEST intelligence that you can get, even at the expense of lost units. The more critical the mission, the more critical ALL expedient means for gathering intelligence are explored.

    The point is, if something is veiled or otherwise hidden, there is still at least a chance of discovering it, and there are different actions that can be done to improve those chances. But if someone doesn't know something, then no matter what the means used for the interrogation, there is no chance of getting that information from them. Interrogation is a high risk method that should be compensated with another method that minimizes the risk.


    If she gets Ossomer he's certainly going to be aware of all of Jetstone's battle plans and resources. And all decrypted units will do everything they can to give Wanda exactly what she asks for.

    I'm not saying this is what's going to happen, but something about the way Wanda appeared to be looking towards Ossomer when she made her last statement made me think she's got an idea on how to pull this off.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:01 pm 
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    Menas wrote:
    If she gets Ossomer he's certainly going to be aware of all of Jetstone's battle plans and resources. And all decrypted units will do everything they can to give Wanda exactly what she asks for.

    I'm not saying this is what's going to happen, but something about the way Wanda appeared to be looking towards Ossomer when she made her last statement made me think she's got an idea on how to pull this off.


    I disagree with that assessment rather strongly. You quoted where I mentioned encapsulation and misinformation, so I don't see how you can make such a statement as an argument against my point, without even addressing it.

    Text said that the Jetstone faction leader always allowed his warlords to do what they wanted. But that was in the past before decryption and it's current effects. Now that the rules have changed, only a total idiot would continue to operate as if the rules were the same.

    I added this point after you quoted me, but I'll repeat it again. Only bad strategy depends on the enemy's stupidity. My impression, on the other hand, is that every royal seen so far has been quite intelligent, and flexible, even if that royal prefers the bigger hammer approach. So I'd expect to see a creative response to the decryption issue very soon from the coalition.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:09 pm 
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    Justyn wrote:
    Why would they take low level infantry to attack the capital? Wrigley is probably still in Warchalking doing exactly what Queen Bea had him doing, except now he's doing it for Stanley the Tool and his Mistress Wanda.


    Missing the point here, Justyn. We are just kidding around.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:17 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    HailGreen28 wrote:

    3. Maybe Ansom should scout the same way he did at the sub-battle of the Dwagon Donut. Send an expendable unit into a hex first, to see what's there.


    It's not that easy - remember, bats have a special that lets them scout automatically. Most units would need to return to relay the information - which would be tricky because unled units auto-engage, so you have to send units with leadership if you want it to be possible to scout out the location of a large enemy force. It would have to be archons - an unled Dwagon would automatically engage the enemy, probably die if it finds anything interesting (interesting is pretty much defined as whatever can easily kill a dwagon, in this case...) and then the body would fall in the enemy hex, where they could destroy it so it couldn't be decrypted. An archon could either return or, hopefully, send out a thinkagram before dying.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:20 pm 
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    yay wrote:
    someone already said this, but Spacerock is probably full of allies (including casters). its similar to ansom sending only Jetstone and marbits into the tunnels instead of risking allies...


    This is a good point; it would be easier for Jetstone to convince its allies to position their units behind the walls of Spacerock than at the bridge because of the city defenses and because Jetstone is unlikely to abandon the capital fight - with his heirs outside his direct reach, Slately might not be able to emulate Queen Bea even if he were willing to croak them personally. (Given that heirs sometimes stage a coup, it seems unlikely that they can be disbanded at will.)

    Especially with all the foreshadowed means for getting reinforcements into the city in a single turn or quicker (hat magic, magic portal, unipegataur express, archons hanging around hotspots, Jillian's airforce), it's quite possible that no one in the bridge hex knows what is waiting in the city. Regarding archons: King Slately may have been spreading rumors about Charlie as a negotiating tactic to get his price down. Also, do we know that archons with casting special abilities cannot pass through the Magic Kingdom?

    I wonder if Wanda will try to get the defenders of Spacerock to show their hand -- and set off their spell defenses -- by sending in Jack and/or foolamancer archons with poor schmoes veiled as Ansom and Wanda. (I wonder if one can stack veils for tougher penetration.) Parson may have thought of this but be reluctant to suggest any kind of suicide mission.

    (By the way, it would be easier for Stanley to retain the run-away option if an illusion of HIM popped up occasionally. Then if the real Stanley had to flee, his enemies would have some concern that they were being tricked by a distraction and might not chase after him with all available forces.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:21 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    I disagree with that assessment rather strongly. You quoted where I mentioned encapsulation and misinformation, so I don't see how you can make such a statement as an argument against my point, without even addressing it.

    Text said that the Jetstone faction leader always allowed his warlords to do what they wanted. But that was in the past before decryption and it's current effects. Now that the rules have changed, only a total idiot would continue to operate as if the rules were the same.

    I added this point after you quoted me, but I'll repeat it again. Only bad strategy depends on the enemy's stupidity. My impression, on the other hand, is that every royal seen so far has been quite intelligent, and flexible, even if that royal prefers the bigger hammer approach. So I'd expect to see a creative response to the decryption issue very soon from the coalition.


    Having your chief warlord not know his own plan is a far greater stupidity than taking the risk that "yes, if they capture the chief warlord, they can find out all his plans."

    Decryption hasn't actually changed that much with respect to intelligence gathering - before, if you could capture a unit, you could interrogate it for all its info. Decryption might work faster and better, and perhaps it's easier to croak and then capture the body rather than capture the person alive... but I don't think those differences are big enough to suddenly do drastic things like deny your own chief warlord information about the battle plan he's supposed to be leading.

    The cost of having your own warlords not know their own battleplan is much higher than the risk of having one of them fall and reveal said battleplan.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:35 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Having your chief warlord not know his own plan is a far greater stupidity than taking the risk that "yes, if they capture the chief warlord, they can find out all his plans."


    Ossomer does know the plan:
    The screenwriters of 'The Professional' wrote:
    Norman Stansfield: Bring me everyone.
    Benny: What do you mean "everyone"?
    Norman Stansfield: EVERYONE.


    It is not necessary for Ossomer to be ignorant of the plan to be ignorant of the exact defenses that were secured. Being ignorant on that point may have been his own idea - or more likely Trammenis's.

    Prediction: Trammenis knows more than Ossomer, even though he's not supposed to.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:35 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    HailGreen28 wrote:

    3. Maybe Ansom should scout the same way he did at the sub-battle of the Dwagon Donut. Send an expendable unit into a hex first, to see what's there.


    It's not that easy - remember, bats have a special that lets them scout automatically. Most units would need to return to relay the information - which would be tricky because unled units auto-engage, so you have to send units with leadership if you want it to be possible to scout out the location of a large enemy force. It would have to be archons - an unled Dwagon would automatically engage the enemy, probably die if it finds anything interesting (interesting is pretty much defined as whatever can easily kill a dwagon, in this case...) and then the body would fall in the enemy hex, where they could destroy it so it couldn't be decrypted. An archon could either return or, hopefully, send out a thinkagram before dying.
    Good points. Archons would probably work. Maybe you could use a warlord riding a Dwagon for that. Dunno which would be more expensive or efficient. Maybe Maggie could handle relaying info real-time from the Archon or warlord...... to an Archon or Ansom/Wanda directly.

    Yeah it would be good tactics for the Coalition to burn/destroy the Dwagon corpse before Wanda got there.

    I figure whatever unit you send in is a goner, but I think the benefits of successfully taking Jetsone's capital this turn is worth spending a few Archons or Dwagons on scouting. They might not fire all their defense at my scout, might not even have to in order to obliterate the scout. But at least I have a chance to find a weak spot, break a veil, or at least have some idea what I'm up against. Long as I don't use up my move to either hit the garrison, or withdraw to a safe postion if say I see 600 Charlie's Archons there and it's no veil.

    BTW- Please Wanda don't hit the bridge! The Princes wouldn't leave themselves unprotected. DON'T DO IT WANDA!!!!!!!!!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:44 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    I disagree with that assessment rather strongly. You quoted where I mentioned encapsulation and misinformation, so I don't see how you can make such a statement as an argument against my point, without even addressing it.


    Because the argument that a chief warlord wouldn't know what's going on with his own forces isn't credible enough to pursue debating.

    The only situation where this might be plausible is one where Ossomer is going to guarantee that he's going to be killed and decrypted in an effort to deceive the enemy. And in that case he would still tell Wanda that he had intentionally misinformed himself. You're not taking into account the fact that decrypted units aren't going to try to hide anything from Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:50 pm 
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    HailGreen28 wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    HailGreen28 wrote:

    3. Maybe Ansom should scout the same way he did at the sub-battle of the Dwagon Donut. Send an expendable unit into a hex first, to see what's there.


    It's not that easy - remember, bats have a special that lets them scout automatically. Most units would need to return to relay the information - which would be tricky because unled units auto-engage, so you have to send units with leadership if you want it to be possible to scout out the location of a large enemy force. It would have to be archons - an unled Dwagon would automatically engage the enemy, probably die if it finds anything interesting (interesting is pretty much defined as whatever can easily kill a dwagon, in this case...) and then the body would fall in the enemy hex, where they could destroy it so it couldn't be decrypted. An archon could either return or, hopefully, send out a thinkagram before dying.
    Good points. Archons would probably work. Maybe you could use a warlord riding a Dwagon for that. Dunno which would be more expensive or efficient. Maybe Maggie could handle relaying info real-time from the Archon or warlord...... to an Archon or Ansom/Wanda directly.

    Yeah it would be good tactics for the Coalition to burn/destroy the Dwagon corpse before Wanda got there.

    I figure whatever unit you send in is a goner, but I think the benefits of successfully taking Jetsone's capital this turn is worth spending a few Archons or Dwagons on scouting. They might not fire all their defense at my scout, might not even have to in order to obliterate the scout. But at least I have a chance to find a weak spot, break a veil, or at least have some idea what I'm up against. Long as I don't use up my move to either hit the garrison, or withdraw to a safe postion if say I see 600 Charlie's Archons there and it's no veil.

    BTW- Please Wanda don't hit the bridge! The Princes wouldn't leave themselves unprotected. DON'T DO IT WANDA!!!!!!!!!


    All good points. If a bat can relay information simply by observing (this might be a Vinny only thing though) then that would make them the super scout unit.

    I agree that Wanda is probably going to be in for a rude surprise if she tries to take out the princes. I would hope so anyway. If not then the RCC pretty much deserves to lose Jetstone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:16 pm 
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    John Campbell wrote:
    dstorrs wrote:
    Also, what's up with the Bride of Frankenstein hair, garter-belt, and no-pants-whatsoever? Oh Wanda, I weep for you.


    She's dressed as Magenta from the end of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

    Which is okay with me, except that it gives me this terrible vision of Sizemore as Riff-Raff in the same scene. Actually, I guess that isn't any worse than actual Riff-Raff.


    Woah...déjà vu (from a similar topic in one of the summer update threads).

    dannom wrote:
    Why would Ansom's brothers assume that the flyers would not be used in the up coming battle?
    Not seeing any flyers with the siege troops prior to the unveiling should signal that they are elsewhere and the city still needs to be defended against them.
    For example they could be several hex behind and still could be used against the city.


    Jetstone have a recognized flyer unit in the form of Unipegataurs don't they?

    A strong airforce is a very useful thing to have in Erfworld - many sides seem to have access to at least one good flying unit - Faq has Gwiffons and Megalogwiffs, TV has its warlords, Goyles/Skanks and Thunderbirds/Firebirds, Charlescomm has Archons, GK has Dwagons etc

    It does seem a strange oversight for Jetstone to be facing a side with known, strong aerial capabilities and not have any flyers of their own. Where are all the mounts from Trem's relay for example?

    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    Don't forget about the HobitTM, Hyatt, Sofa King, FoxMud and Transylvito casters.


    I'm really interested in seeing what some of the other sides in the RCC have to offer. So far Haggar, Hyatt, Sofa King, FoxMUD and Hobbittm seem to be keeping out of it while TV, Unaroyal (alas) and Jetstone do everything.

    And Caesar's in the summer update did make it sound like Don King was doing a lot for the RCC in addition to Faq...

    Darkside007 wrote:
    Menas, that requires Jetstone can respond to the new information recieved; they can't. Either they prepped for a dragon ambush or they didn't, they can't make those preparations now.


    I agree, but I do think it would have made sense for Jetstone to have done something in preparation for Dwagons/Archons, which they know GK has. Even if it isn't the main plan and just "we can't see any dwagons, strange, maybe we should have a back up plan in case they are planning something with flyers"...

    splintermute wrote:
    I think it's entirely possible that Spacerock will pull some surprise out of a hat - they seem to have a magic user specifically designed for that purpose.


    Heh, that would actually make a lot of sense.

    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    I forsee him pulling a Dwagon out of his hat.


    I actually thought he might pull Charlie out of his hat.

    Quote:
    1. Parson should be running calcs! The Bracer can predict the future! (Maybe that would make for a dull story)


    Not really predict the future - as shown with the great Gobwin mystery.

    ftl wrote:
    Having your chief warlord not know his own plan is a far greater stupidity than taking the risk that "yes, if they capture the chief warlord, they can find out all his plans."


    If it is the case (not saying it will be) presumably he does know his own plan, he just wouldn't have information on the greater plan/details. Of if your prefer - he knows the part he has to play, but not everything else going on.

    Personally even that seems a bit dangerous, because if there is one person you want to be on top of things it is your top military officer during a pivotal battle.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:38 pm 
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    ftl wrote:

    Having your chief warlord not know his own plan is a far greater stupidity than taking the risk that "yes, if they capture the chief warlord, they can find out all his plans."

    Decryption hasn't actually changed that much with respect to intelligence gathering - before, if you could capture a unit, you could interrogate it for all its info. Decryption might work faster and better, and perhaps it's easier to croak and then capture the body rather than capture the person alive... but I don't think those differences are big enough to suddenly do drastic things like deny your own chief warlord information about the battle plan he's supposed to be leading.

    The cost of having your own warlords not know their own battleplan is much higher than the risk of having one of them fall and reveal said battleplan.


    I agree with what dancing Cthulhu said; They know they have to hold the bridge ,or they are doomed. Even if not planned that way, none would tell them that they are not important, that they are a bait. Even if not a trap from the beginning, for keeping their moral high they would be misinformed. I cant see any reason they have to know everything. You may think they are royal, and they never lie-but nobles are too good to get caught lying. My thoughts :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 pm 
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    This is my first post, so please bear with me, and forgive me if I'm rehashing things other people have suggested.

    Speculations :

    1) It was Parson's plan to veil the heavy fliers. My reasons for thinking that are as follows :
    a. Ansom didn't seem to think Ossamer would go with this plan. His surprise seemed legitimate.
    b. If Ansom HAD come up with this plan, it seems he'd throw it back in Ossamer's face pretty quickly. Instead, he stormed back to his ranks, almost like he was ashamed he needed to use Parson's plan to beat his brother.
    c. People have brought up that Stanley seemed to credit Ansom with the plan. They forget that Stanley NEVER credits Parson, whereas Ansom, post-decrypt, is his ideal dream Warlord. Handsome, powerful... and totally devoted to the megalomaniac in charge of GK. Ansom never took credit.
    d. It is exactly the kind of plan that Parson would come up with, with the assistance of the bracer. Parson, like in the battle for GK, isn't exactly looking for a way to crush his enemy's entire force. He's looking for a weakness that will allow him to avoid a wasteful major engagement. He tried it in the first battle when he almost trapped Ansom and Vinny with the Dwagon-pincers. Now he's lured Jetstone's best warlords, fighters AND casters to a spot where they can't defend the capital.

    2) Regarding how Wanda is going to gain intelligence, please look at the last panel. There has been much speculation about who that lone figure is. When I squint at it, I think its a Marbit, who for some reason isn't where he SHOULD be. (Seriously - look at the ears.)
    a. If the Marbit is loyal to Jetstone, then the Marbit probably knows what's going on. Wanda can croak him, decrypt him and ask him.
    b. If the Marbit is GK decrypted, then perhaps Wanda's plan is to have him infiltrate Jetstone's forces somehow (Foolamancy?) and get information that way. Simple spy stuff.
    c. Here's my 1-in-1,000,000 theory : The Marbit is TECHNICALLY loyal to Jetstone, but is looking to turn. The 'holy war' Wanda has started has caused cracks, in other words some Marbit is sick of being ordered around by Jetstone Royals, and is too dumb to realize that Stanley is (probably) worse.

    Our grand poo-bah write is no doubt going to go with whatever would make the best story, NOT whatever seems natural just based on the limited information we have. And that, my friends, is a good thing. :mrgreen:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 5
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:37 pm 
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    It seemed like a perfectly reasonable idea until Wanda's penultimate comment.
    This will not end well.

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