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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:09 am 
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Lipkin wrote:
Beeskee wrote:
Possibly. :D

Charlie might be low-level. Then again we've seen him do some apparently high-level Carnymancy. At least one - "Charlie doesn't croak from whatever is incapacitating him" - is probably less likely to be boosted by the Arkendish, but the others may be boosted, so it's anyone's guess as to what actual level he is.

He might get gradual slow XP for running the city and his side, like how units can train for slow XP. We don't have any word on that, though, it's speculation so far. Then again, the ruler's level doesn't seem to matter for any bonuses except their personal stack bonuses. Charlie could probably carnymancy himself up a Warlord bonus in a pinch, too. :D

Well, we know that he is a master carny, right? But that doesn't mean he's high level, since mastery is about understanding, not experience. Basically.


Charlie is assuredly high level as before he attuned he was regularly fighting allied 2 sides which both had arkentools, the man didn't have the signamancy of Charles de Gaulle without knowing his way around a battlefield.

While a low level caster with a deep understanding(mastery) is possible Charlie is not such a case.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:11 am 
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    WWCD?

    Charlie is the kind of guy who will always play it safe, then come back with an epic revenge later. He knows he can't win this fight. He knows that the longer he stays here, the more risk that his enemies will learn something important about how the dish works. He also knows that Lilith is safe in his capital and she's not going anywhere.

    So, he has several options. He might pull out of thinkspace and have the other archons kill Lilith now. This would probably cost him a million schmuckers, which his most dangerous enemy would get. On the other hand, it might stop Lilith telling Wanda and Maggie what she learned about him.

    He can just hold on to Lilith until the agreement expires, then kill her any time he wants, with no cost. However, in this case Lilith would certainly tell his enemies everything she learned during this fight, which would probably be quite damaging to him.

    If he thinks of it in time, he might find a way to make Wanda decide that she has to kill Lilith immediately. Win-win for him, if he can pull it off; he doesn't forfeit a million schmuckers and he still minimizes the risk of Lilith passing on her information.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:15 am 
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    auraseer wrote:
    BarGamer wrote:
    Ooh, what if Parson finally gets sick and tired of Stanley's BS, and orders Maggie and Wanda to Decrypt Stanley too

    Interesting idea, but it can't happen. They would have to kill him first, and when he dies without an heir, the side instantly goes into stasis. Nobody can take any actions, which means Wanda can't act to decrypt him.

    There's a way around that, but it's risky. The garrison units can take actions if they're attacked. Parson could arrange for someone to attack the city right after Stanley is croaked. Then Wanda wakes up and decrypts Stanley.

    However, I don't think Parson really wants to croak Stanley, and certainly not at the price of disbanding every field unit GK has. (Especially since he's one himself now, though the rules may not apply to him.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:36 am 
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    Pfft, okay, Charlie won some points with that "Oh. That's not good."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:47 am 
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    Quote:
    If Charlie whacks Maggie, he breaks the link and removes Wanda from the equation.
    Quote:
    If the enemy is in range, so are you.

    Not necessarily...
    Also, whacking Maggie will not necessarily incapacitate Wanda - it will just remove Maggie's support.
    Quote:
    She's pretty much toast i'd say. Even in the best case scenario, if Charlie Croaks, or is mentally incapacitated, all those angry archons will still disintegrate her .

    Let me just quote Auraseer on that:
    Quote:
    Interesting idea, but it can't happen. ... when [Charlie] dies without an heir, the side instantly goes into stasis. Nobody can take any actions, which means [the Archons can't kill Lilith].

    Anyway, great Update! That's what Charlie gets for using Croakamancy on one of Wanda's decrypted...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:04 am 
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    BakaGrappler wrote:
    To be fair, she took it honestly. Charlie... does not take anything honestly. And he's taken A LOT. Jillian's mind for instance. So, yeah, there is some history behind those words.

    And I may be mistaken, but the wings may be Lillith, the body Wanda, and the angel adviser Maggie.

    EDIT:
    Oh, wait, I am mistaken. There is Lillith fluttering in the air on the right side of the last panel. She's looking healthier now that the knights are being Recrypted. Heh.

    Jillian had it coming. She took Charlie's (innocent) daughter from him.
    Voyager wrote:
    If they are doing what I think they are, that *is* a clever move. Retrieving Lilith's core protects her secrets, and it looks like they may be able to do it without directly harming Charlie, and sneak a retreat that looks like a successful offence.

    There really is nothing like beating a hasty retreat that convinces the enemy that you're still invading for a month after you have already left.

    Ah the Battle For Kiska (AKA: Operation Cottage), the only battle in which the Japanese beat the Americans; having achieved that by not showing up. The Americans suffered 3000 incapacitations that day, mostly from friendly fire.

    Wikipedia called it an "(inconclusive) American Victory", but the casualty rates should speak for themselves. Of coarse, the American reconquest of the Aleutian Islands did set the Japs back years in regards to their efforts to teach dogs how to make coffee. So it could be seen as an American victory in regards that it prevented the Japs from making an important scientific breakthrough. Just imagine

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:20 am 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    Infidel wrote:
    And I'm not getting this I'm stealing from you after you stole from me.

    Wanda decrypted croaked characters. That isn't theft. Charlie is trying to subvert a "living" character. That is theft.

    To be fair, Lilith was croaked in the first place by Wanda-Maggie-Sizemore. Croaking and decryption individually might not be theft, but I don't think theft becomes not-theft by being split into two steps.


    Lilith was croaked as part of Parson's Strategy. I agree, breaking it up into two steps doesn't make it not theft. But the tri-link were acting under Parson for SURVIVAL. There was no intent of kill to steal, it was kill to survive. Then, in the aftermath, there just happened to be a bunch of bodies lying about...

    Charlie is INTENDING to steal, ergo it is theft.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:36 am 
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    I'll just say that this page needs to be animated. Animated and voice acted! At least the last panel!

    Absolutely nerdly awesomeness. Charlie better cut his losses quick.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:44 am 
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    So the situation right now seems to be:

    -Charlie cannot move himself.
    -Charlie is directly linked to Lilith by touch, which is 10x stronger than without touch.
    -Charlie is engaged in thinkspace, so he cannot ask someone to remove his hand from Lilith.
    -Charlie must disengage in thinkspace before breaking out of thinkspace. So he might not be able to quit out until all his converted knights are lost. It might actually be faster to allow Wanda to convert all knights as opposed to extract himself from the knights.
    -Once all knights are returned and if no "crows" are engages, Charlie can quit thinkspace.
    -Then he can tell an archon to remove his hand. But in the meantime Wanda and Maggie can use the touch link to bridge over into Charlie's mind.

    So if there is time dialation between Realspace and Thinkspace, The time it takes Charlie to tell the Archon to remove his hand, and the time it takes the Archon to actually do this, might be all the time Wanda and Maggie need to, if not kill charlie, cause some major damage.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:03 am 
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    If Charlie is the swarm of crows I'm sure he's keeping a safe distance and just allowing the blue knights to take over for now. It's still dangerous as Charlie can withdraw and dust Lillith, but Wanda can possibly escape with the red bird rendering Lillith brain dead, with her mind back in GK to get info from. I wonder if Lillith's bird signamancy will change as Wanda regains more ground in her mind.

    The angel whispering in your ear is signamancy also. I think I first saw that on Tom and Jerry, but likely goes back further than that.

    I'm seeing arkentools inhibiting some kind of limit breaker on the related magical disciplines.
    The Charlie swarm could be an arkendish power. He's not using his own juice to do thinkamancy. Same as Wanda not blowing all her juice at the first full decrypted soldier. Each member of the Charlie swarm is Charlie, so only one needs to survive I'm guessing, if there's a limit at all.

    Edit:
    Forgot to add, the whole bird thing might be just CharlesComm signamancy. Their livery has bird wings for that matter.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:17 am 
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    I notice that one of the towers is broken. Does the castle Signamantically crumble on its own as Charlie converts defenders, or do any of the crows have symbolic siege attacks?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:19 am 
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    Tualha wrote:
    DJMandwich wrote:
    Anybody catch the signamancy in the second panel?

    Sometimes a battering ram is just a battering ram.

    While it would be difficult or impossible to draw a battering ram hitting a pair of doors in a way that didn't evoke the idea of rape, I don't think that it was done here unknowingly or unintentionally. Layers upon layers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:26 am 
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    I'm glad Lilith held out so well that Wanda could swoop in with a Just-In-Time solution that leverages synergy to shift the paradigm of the mind-space. Wanda may be as possessive as Charlie is greedy, but I know Wanda has a dead brother and cried about it, I don't know Charlie cried about Olive so I don't feel bad for him. Also, Lilith likes Wanda, and I care about her being happy, even if these turn out to be her final moments.

    It's interesting that the beams coming from the knight are concurrent with a beam coming from the Pliers. The Knights act as conduits, not sources of the power. They'd need to all connect back to Wanda with a lightstorm like branches of a neon tree.

    The tools seem to push people into certain patterns. Thinkamancy units as relays for casting Thinkamancy, mental constructs as conduits for decryption, Dragons as transport for warlords. Paying the price for a tool means a lot of pain, end of side pain for Wanda and Stanley; loss of home and family for Wanda, Judy, and Charlie; flower power pain for Wanda, Judy, and Charlie; treachery for Stanley, Judy and Charlie. Seems no wonder they end up in the hands of unbalanced people.

    I am on the edge of my seat here, wondering what happens next.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:38 am 
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    I just had a thought about the Arkendish. Based on things such as:
    - Recent revelations in the comic about certain paths of magic
    - Lilith referring to love/hate in her final speech
    - The archons being bound to Charlie and the Dish not by loyalty like normal sides , but by love
    - Charlies affinity to natural allies

    The dish might not be a thinkamancy artifact, but a date-a-mancy one. The clues lately in the comic have been pointing towards that, and Charlies control of the archons does seem a lot like dat-a-mancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:49 am 
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    Random predictamancy and posibly unwanted spoilers

    Spoiler: show
    Charlie tries to mount some sort of defense, but is defeated by Wanda and Maggie. He tries to disengage and break the link, but Lilith's bird follows him into his own mind, keeping the link open and allowing Wanda to lay siege. HIs defenses are super strong, and the battle will last several turns.

    Charlie's chief warlord archon realizes something is wrong and GK is behind it, and asks their thinkamancer ally to come to Charlescom, but he is discovered and croaked by the great minds for treason.

    Croaking Lilith is too dangerous, since she is linked to Charlie by touch. The only way to safely rescue Charlie is to croak Wanda directly. Hundreds of Archons assault GK's defensive positions, and make their way to Jetstone, triggering the contract granting GK millions of Schmuckers.

    Parson puts every possible obstacle in the archon's way. The archon's call forth Jetstone and Faq to aid them in an all out push to Croak Wanda, Stanly, and Parson.

    Transylvito gets bogged down by their neighbours attack, and PArson manages to enter an alliance with Caesar, who breaks into his own side taking all of Transylvito's warlords. Vinny is left to choose, join Caesars New Transylvito, or aid Jillian.

    The archons's, bringing all of their new weapons, followed by Jetstone and Faq arrive at the city of Jetstone, only to find Haggar and Caesar allied to GK, and Stanley commanding legions of elves ready start a Rockout. Jetstone has been upgraded with more than a million schmuckers, and Jed the Head is turned into a godlike defense mechanism. Parson prepares his masterstroke by tempting Jillian's heir to commit treason against his side as the battle is about to begin...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:55 am 
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    Just a few thoughts:

    1. Charlie can simply retreat and either repatriate Lilith or wait until the end of the Truce to croak her, keeping her imprisoned for the time being. Repatriation may actually be better if he can arrange to get paid for the return -- having Lilith alive at Charlescomm may mean she starts talking to other Archons, and even if they don't believe her at face value, it would be a hard question for them as to why Charlie didn't succeed in turning her back. Easier to just say, "Ok, Archons, I found what I needed, but it will take time to implement a fix for Lilith; I have arranged to get paid to "loan" her back to our enemies, but when I get done readying the spell, she'll be one of us again."

    2. Charlie almost certainly will revoke any reward for capture of Archons, knowing at least that the hold the Archenpliers has can't be defeated via magical means. He might investigate the Ossomer Incident, but realize that he doesn't have the pull over his Archons in the non-magical realm and therefore cannot replicate what happened to Ossomer except among his most naturally loyal inner circle -- and if it ever gets to that, he's probably hosed anyway.

    3. This does suggest (confirm?) each Arkentool has a Natural "Love" component to it. I would wager that, if Charlie had failed to turn Stanley's Hobgobwins, that attempting to turn the dwagons would be a complete nonstarter -- that the Lovemancy for Hobgobwins as a Natural Ally is, while Natural in nature, much weaker than the Arkentool's "Lovemancy" component.

    However, as a corollary to that, the "Lovemancy" of an Arkentool, once broken, is going to involve massive backlash on that unit -- almost to the point of something approaching Natural "Hatemancy", if there were such a thing.

    Yes, I'm aware that there's no explicit "Lovemancy" in the Axis; I'm just putting it there as a placeholder for whatever category it would fall under as an actual magical category.

    4. On the subject of "mine": nations at least in the past considered captured weaponry as "spoils of war" and the outrage over that was not the same as taking captured soldiers and "brainwashing" them into switching sides. The logic would be a bit convoluted, but decrypted units would be more seen as "spoils of war", at least by Wanda, but universally the attempt to turn Lilith is probably seen by all sides in Erf as something distasteful.

    I'm pretty sure there was a fifth thought, but beer is tasty and yet makes me forget things. Mea Culpa.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:55 am 
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    Roketter wrote:
    Random predictamancy and posibly unwanted spoilers

    Spoiler: show
    Charlie tries to mount some sort of defense, but is defeated by Wanda and Maggie. He tries to disengage and break the link, but Lilith's bird follows him into his own mind, keeping the link open and allowing Wanda to lay siege. HIs defenses are super strong, and the battle will last several turns.

    Charlie's chief warlord archon realizes something is wrong and GK is behind it, and asks their thinkamancer ally to come to Charlescom, but he is discovered and croaked by the great minds for treason.

    Croaking Lilith is too dangerous, since she is linked to Charlie by touch. The only way to safely rescue Charlie is to croak Wanda directly. Hundreds of Archons assault GK's defensive positions, and make their way to Jetstone, triggering the contract granting GK millions of Schmuckers.

    Parson puts every possible obstacle in the archon's way. The archon's call forth Jetstone and Faq to aid them in an all out push to Croak Wanda, Stanly, and Parson.

    Transylvito gets bogged down by their neighbours attack, and PArson manages to enter an alliance with Caesar, who breaks into his own side taking all of Transylvito's warlords. Vinny is left to choose, join Caesars New Transylvito, or aid Jillian.

    The archons's, bringing all of their new weapons, followed by Jetstone and Faq arrive at the city of Jetstone, only to find Haggar and Caesar allied to GK, and Stanley commanding legions of elves ready start a Rockout. Jetstone has been upgraded with more than a million schmuckers, and Jed the Head is turned into a godlike defense mechanism. Parson prepares his masterstroke by tempting Jillian's heir to commit treason against his side as the battle is about to begin...

    YES PLEASE

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:09 pm 
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    Roketter wrote:
    Random predictamancy and posibly unwanted spoilers

    Spoiler: show
    Charlie tries to mount some sort of defense, but is defeated by Wanda and Maggie. He tries to disengage and break the link, but Lilith's bird follows him into his own mind, keeping the link open and allowing Wanda to lay siege. HIs defenses are super strong, and the battle will last several turns.

    Charlie's chief warlord archon realizes something is wrong and GK is behind it, and asks their thinkamancer ally to come to Charlescom, but he is discovered and croaked by the great minds for treason.

    Croaking Lilith is too dangerous, since she is linked to Charlie by touch. The only way to safely rescue Charlie is to croak Wanda directly. Hundreds of Archons assault GK's defensive positions, and make their way to Jetstone, triggering the contract granting GK millions of Schmuckers.

    Parson puts every possible obstacle in the archon's way. The archon's call forth Jetstone and Faq to aid them in an all out push to Croak Wanda, Stanly, and Parson.

    Transylvito gets bogged down by their neighbours attack, and PArson manages to enter an alliance with Caesar, who breaks into his own side taking all of Transylvito's warlords. Vinny is left to choose, join Caesars New Transylvito, or aid Jillian.

    The archons's, bringing all of their new weapons, followed by Jetstone and Faq arrive at the city of Jetstone, only to find Haggar and Caesar allied to GK, and Stanley commanding legions of elves ready start a Rockout. Jetstone has been upgraded with more than a million schmuckers, and Jed the Head is turned into a godlike defense mechanism. Parson prepares his masterstroke by tempting Jillian's heir to commit treason against his side as the battle is about to begin...


    Minor nitpicking: Charlie doesn't use warlords, so there's no CW archon. He has inner circle archons, though; I wonder if they have a leader.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:26 pm 
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    Brother Mirtillo wrote:
    The Nemo seagulls say "Mine," sure, but I prefer Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. Its a story of the Discworld, where any god's power is proportional to their amount of worshippers (or lack thereof). The story focuses on a god who is literally down to one follower.

    In Wanda's case, I suppose her possessiveness has other reasons.

    Props to Lilith for defying to the end. Not sure what to make of the fact that she was also a bird. Last and not least, using Wanda/Maggie as a devil/shoulder-angel duality is absolutely cute. Here's hoping that, yes, this did break through Charlie's plans to give him a losing outcome, even if it's for a little while.

    @BakaGrappler "You're trying to kidnap what I've rightfully stolen."


    I was thinking more of "The Fifth Elephant" there, when wolves attack sleeping Carrot and little dog Gaspode mounts heroic last stand. He heroically barks "Mine! Mine!" to the assembled wolves because he knows they won't understand what he means if he used different words because they're wolves and he is dog and it is a dog-master thing. And he attacks them, despite knowing he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell to survive. Then he gets swatted from his feet by a huge claw and into the snow by the nearest wolf, with sudden teeth showing and the oddly familiar eyes and that wolf growls "hMine!". And, it turns out, Carrot does belong to that particular wolf more than he belongs to Gaspode :D.

    But yes. "Small Gods" fits better.

    Anyway, Wanda will rock you, Charlie.

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    Last edited by youngstormlord on Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 94
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:28 pm 
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    lucidfox wrote:
    Roketter wrote:
    Random predictamancy and posibly unwanted spoilers

    Spoiler: show
    Charlie tries to mount some sort of defense, but is defeated by Wanda and Maggie. He tries to disengage and break the link, but Lilith's bird follows him into his own mind, keeping the link open and allowing Wanda to lay siege. HIs defenses are super strong, and the battle will last several turns.

    Charlie's chief warlord archon realizes something is wrong and GK is behind it, and asks their thinkamancer ally to come to Charlescom, but he is discovered and croaked by the great minds for treason.

    Croaking Lilith is too dangerous, since she is linked to Charlie by touch. The only way to safely rescue Charlie is to croak Wanda directly. Hundreds of Archons assault GK's defensive positions, and make their way to Jetstone, triggering the contract granting GK millions of Schmuckers.

    Parson puts every possible obstacle in the archon's way. The archon's call forth Jetstone and Faq to aid them in an all out push to Croak Wanda, Stanly, and Parson.

    Transylvito gets bogged down by their neighbours attack, and PArson manages to enter an alliance with Caesar, who breaks into his own side taking all of Transylvito's warlords. Vinny is left to choose, join Caesars New Transylvito, or aid Jillian.

    The archons's, bringing all of their new weapons, followed by Jetstone and Faq arrive at the city of Jetstone, only to find Haggar and Caesar allied to GK, and Stanley commanding legions of elves ready start a Rockout. Jetstone has been upgraded with more than a million schmuckers, and Jed the Head is turned into a godlike defense mechanism. Parson prepares his masterstroke by tempting Jillian's heir to commit treason against his side as the battle is about to begin...


    Minor nitpicking: Charlie doesn't use warlords, so there's no CW archon. He has inner circle archons, though; I wonder if they have a leader.


    There are archons with leadership special, though. So they at least have field leaders.

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