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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:22 am 
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Wanda isn't the real threat, Parson is. Like others have commented, Parson WILL eventually croak Charlie. He might spend a million turns in someone's dungeon if he boops up, of course, fate doesn't care about that, but one way or another it's going to happen. It's already happened, from a certain perspective, just that the actual event is in the future. Charlie was dead the moment Parson was summoned.

That's who Charlie was really concerned about, but I'm guessing that he's so used to not giving away information freely that he couldn't bring himself to give Jillian any more info than what he did.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:27 am 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    Still doubt that the Great Minds could ever mark Maggie as a baddie. They could bar her from becoming a Great Mind, but I think that's the extent of their power in this agreement.

    Yeah, I think Charlie has enough power to screw with the prophecies. We'll see. (I had a long day and I'm contented right now and I'm tired. Excuse my weak answers.)

    I could see them trying to make her baddie, with all the mental alteration that goes with it, only for Parson to go to bat for her.

    "If you do this, not only will I refuse to work with you in the future, I will make everything that Maggie has told me widely known, and I will sign a permanent peace treaty with Charlie."

    They compromise. Maggie is banned from the Maggie Kingdom, but her mind is unaltered.

    (I find it funny that your version of weak answers is a post of standard length for other people.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:50 am 
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    Could Jack link with Maggie and Wanda so they have a three-mancer link against Charlie and the dish?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:52 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    (I find it funny that your version of weak answers is a post of standard length for other people.)


    I know, right. I like to talk and no one can interpret me when I'm typing messages out. MAHAHAHAHA HAAA!

    Yeah, I see them TRYING to brand Maggie, but Parson cutting them off if they refuse to back down. I outlined that idea in a different thread somewhere. I can't remember where.

    Spicymancer wrote:
    This is... the second time we've seen Wanda cry. The first was after uncroaking her brother.


    As I outlined in my brief fit of insanity, I think that's a sign of her previous horrible experiences. I wouldn't be surprised if her "true self" is always crying inside her mind. What we are seeing is just a mental representation of what is going on in their mindscape. It's all metaphors. There's a trope for that. It's actually one that I linked: Mental World.

    Edit: Also there are two other tropes that are important: Astonishingly Appropriate Appearance and Residual Self Image. Rare is it that the too tropes are combined like they are in Erfworld, but that's why I like this story. Erfworld uses the old to make something new and unique.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:12 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    The best option would probably be to mercy kill Lilith, honestly. With no decrypted Archons, the door is closed.

    Yes, I also think that would be the most prudent course... The still probably won`t do it.

    Regarding Charlie's Military superiority... That is almost certainly largely exaggerated. Charlie may have a Lot of Archons but a lange number of them is tied up in conflicts all over erf, and He wouldn't send them all against GK anyway since he'd be defenseless if they all croaked.
    Also, every archon that croaked wouldn't immediately start fighting for GK as up croaked...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:27 am 
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    Noigel wrote:
    Also notice the symbol on Wanda's hip... so subtle. :)

    Actually that was part of her raiment back at Goodminton. She was wearing that flower long before she fell into Olive's claws.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:37 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I could see them trying to make her baddie, with all the mental alteration that goes with it, only for Parson to go to bat for her.

    "If you do this, not only will I refuse to work with you in the future, I will make everything that Maggie has told me widely known, and I will sign a permanent peace treaty with Charlie."

    They compromise. Maggie is banned from the Maggie Kingdom, but her mind is unaltered.

    I think this is relevant to the discussion: https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Epilogue_12

    From the sounds of it, telling Parson everything is a thing some of them are willing to consider. They've already told him quite a bit, and this supports their agenda, so damage probably wouldn't reach Baddy status. Maggie just described it as losing any chance of claiming so much as a cot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:25 am 
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    I think you're misinterpreting Wanda's reaction. That isn't merely a horrified or shocked look. As you pointed out, the only time Wanda cried before was when her brother died - and her brother died as a result of her actions (or at least Wanda saw it that way).

    I think Wanda is in crisis because she realizes her own control over the uncroaked is no less lovecraftian than Charlie's control over his archons. This is an existential crisis: she realizes what Parson innocently said to Stanley in the beginning: they are the bad guys. The really bad guys.

    Also, this might be a trap. Charlie might be doing it precisely to find Wanda's link to the decrypted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:26 am 
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    vintermann wrote:
    I think you're misinterpreting Wanda's reaction. That isn't merely a horrified or shocked look. As you pointed out, the only time Wanda cried before was when her brother died - and her brother died as a result of her actions (or at least Wanda saw it that way).

    I think Wanda is in crisis because she realizes her own control over the uncroaked is no less lovecraftian than Charlie's control over his archons. This is an existential crisis: she realizes what Parson innocently said to Stanley in the beginning: they are the bad guys. The really bad guys.

    Also, this might be a trap. Charlie might be doing it precisely to find Wanda's link to the decrypted.

    If that were the case, Wanda wouldn't be feeling rage. She'd be feeling shame.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:30 am 
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    Alpha the White wrote:
    C'mon Parson, CALCULATE THE DAMN ODDS ALREADY.


    Do we really need to see it, though? Can we just assume that he's done that off-screen?

    When the story began, we needed the explicit comics about the bracer to explain how Parson could suddenly make reasonable decisions in a world he was new to, and occasionally to help him get some new information. But there's really not much story value in continuing to show him going back to the bracer for every decision he makes, to confirm it/help him make it.

    So yes, it would make perfect sense for Parson to check the bracer before any major decision of any kind. But in most cases, it doesn't really add anything to the story to show him check with the bracer and get back and answer that confirms his intuition. We'll probably only see the bracer when it's somehow specifically relevant that the bracer is what gave him the answer. So in cases where the decision is the key plot point, not the process of how he came to it, we shouldn't need Rob to spend panels showing a bracer scene.

    Just assume he's done it, just like we assume he's still doing the grunt work of the day-to-day management of the side's troops even when we don't see them. We'll see it when it's plot-relevant.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:41 am 
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    Wow. What a page. Glad today is a Friday and not a Monday, 1 less day until the next page.

    Love the dialogue and the art in this. Such great metaphors. A little bit more of the thinkamancy onion just got pulled back too. So many considerations in play here.

    This is a perfect chance to fire up the ol' bracer: "If I order Maggie to link with Wanda and attack Charlie what are the odds that one or both of them die or are incapacitated this turn?" That sort of thing. Perhaps it won't occur to Parson, so intense is this moment, even a perfect warlord makes mistakes.

    How does combat in brain space like this even work? What stats are at play? Do they have "hit points" like they would in a normal hex? Is a mind a hex? Does Wanda get a terrain bonus? Will Lilith be able to fight back once they start attacking, like Jillian did at first during her surgery?

    What they NEED is a shockamancer to link with Maggie. Walk through that door and blast that motherfucker in his mouth with some blue lightening.

    Wanda does not look like she is full of rage. More like terror and horror, to my eye. But I may be misreading her. Maggie is a thinkamancer touching her so I suppose I should defer to her judgement.

    I don't think they need to worry about Charlie intercepting any thinkagrams or chatting with any of his minions in the MK for now. Seems to me his attention is entirely taken up at the moment.

    I realize if the next page goes to Stanley with the juggles you are all going to be so mad. But not me. :twisted:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:45 am 
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    I bet you the greatest possible pleasure for a decrpyted unit would be linking with Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:52 am 
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    There are more choices than "attack Charlie now" and "don't attack Charlie now."

    We've all seen Parson use lateral thinking, over and over, to come up with clever unexpected strategies. I suspect he will do the same in this situation.

    One idea would be to have Jack link with the others, and feed Charlie false information about how the pliers link Wanda to the decrypted. Let him think he knows how to sever that connection, at the right critical moment. Let him think he holds a royal flush — but when he tries to use it, the ace turns out to be a joker.

    It seems less likely to backfire than a direct attack, and could pay off big in the long run.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:53 am 
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    So, people are theorizing that Parson could join the link. If Parson could join, I have a different thought.

    What if Stanley joined instead? Better or worse? Who would add more, a second tool vs Charlie's 1, or Parson's strategic mind in a completely foreign battleground?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:54 am 
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    On an unrelated note - I'm on a very mixed mind as to whether Parson should go for it.

    From the point of view of being dramatic and bold, of course the answer is to go for the jugular, go for the kill, risks be damned.

    But that's no way to run a side! You can't just keep going all-in again and again. They can't keep putting Wanda on the front lines risky fights, again and again. Because one of these days one of those risks won't pay off, and then you lose everything.

    This seems like a prime candidate for the "lose all" day. They're going against an opponent of unknown capabilities, wielding a thinkamancy-arkentool in thinkspace. There's a contract over their heads so that even if the fight is a draw, there's still a horrendous cost to it unless they win completely, so it's win big or lose utterly.

    And the thing is, they don't NEED to take this risk! Decryption is the ultimate weapon for drawn-out wars! Great strategy for GK is to play it relatively safe, get involved in long drawn-out wars of attrition where GK tries to rely on living troops as much as possible - not get involved in thinkspace battles where if they screw up they lose it all!

    Maybe in the next strip we'll see a good reason why they can't wait it out. But I don't see a good reason to go for it here, with all the uncertainty.

    [fake edit]
    Oh man, just before I posted, I saw Tualha's post. That would be perfect. Lateral thinking.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:58 am 
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    Tualha wrote:
    There are more choices than "attack Charlie now" and "don't attack Charlie now."

    We've all seen Parson use lateral thinking, over and over, to come up with clever unexpected strategies. I suspect he will do the same in this situation.

    One idea would be to have Jack link with the others, and feed Charlie false information about how the pliers link Wanda to the decrypted. Let him think he knows how to sever that connection, at the right critical moment. Let him think he holds a royal flush — but when he tries to use it, the ace turns out to be a joker.

    It seems less likely to backfire than a direct attack, and could pay off big in the long run.

    That's a great idea. But it only works if Parson knows what Charlie is hoping to learn from Lilith.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:01 am 
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    On the question of "going for it":

    What's a better way to fight Charlie, going to CCHQ to fight him on his turf or catching him by surprise where you outnumber him? If you are planning on taking a strike on the overlord himself in the forseeable future you are not going to get a better one that this.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:12 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    If that were the case, Wanda wouldn't be feeling rage. She'd be feeling shame.


    Why not both?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:28 am 
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    I think this is the first time we've seen Maggie show caring and concern for Wanda. They have always had some emotional distance between them, as I recall. Until now. Astonishing.

    Equally astonishing is that this is something Maggie explicitly wants to do. As I recall, Maggie seldom talks about what she wants. Self-effacing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 92
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:46 am 
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    Not sure if the artist reads these but I feel the art has greatly improved in virtually all ways. The faces are again very expressive (that Wanda face), they remind me of Xin's style and artistic continuity is always good.
    The main issue that remains imo is that the artists tends to overstate facial lines, and this gets much worse when we have a zoomed out shot. I mean look at Jack's face in panel 3, it's like a gargoyle. In general more detail needs to be given to zoomed out faces to make them feel natural (a special pet peeve for me are colorless eyes (thought these happen less lately), to save time presumably, but is it worth the jarring effect it has on the viewer?).


    As for the question of "going for it." From a logical perspective I'd say, it's a solid shot. Because Charlie has many Archons, many defenses and crazy tricks which as he himself said, Parson can't even imagine... and given the time he had to experiment before this conflict even started, I believe him. So this shot could be the only chance they ever get... but it also risks just about everything, Wanda, her armies, Maggie, and so many shmuckers it may well auto-disband half their army and raze half their cities. That is why it's not a perfect shot, too much is at stake for an uncertain result. They can conceivably play the long game, grind Charlie down via Decryption... but that gives him more time to pull something. So yeah, it's a huge risk but given what we know of Charlie so is waiting, taking the shot is logically sound.

    But story-wise, I think it's very bad odds. This feels like too early in the story to take out Charlie, so this could be a total screw-up or a partial success but I am betting it will be horrible for GK either way. Furthermore given how much of a beast Charlie is (in the sense of his great power in the story), would it feel satisfactory to have him be defeated in this cheesy way?
    On the flip side, if GK loses horribly, for the same reason of Charlie being such an in-universe powerhouse it stretches belief that he will spare GK. And we already have indication he is holding back, why? I honestly hope Rob has a good explanation in mind and this story won't end on an unsatisfying note.

    So yeah, I am very concerned for Parson and co. Logic says go but story says no, though maybe Parson has caught onto the dramatic nature of Erfworld and takes that into account, but probably not. I guess I'll be waiting on the next episode with trepidation.

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